Why Are We Like This?
Making sense of people who don’t make sense, Why Are We Like This? is a podcast about human nature, pop culture, and the wonderfully strange ways people behave.
Hosted by a gay married couple with strong opinions and an endless curiosity about what makes people tick, Why Are We Like This? dives into movies, TV shows, celebrity moments, internet obsessions, social trends, and everyday quirks that shape our lives. Each week we break down the pop culture moments, questionable human behavior, and everyday oddities we can’t stop talking about—and the surprisingly relatable reasons behind them.
Part cultural commentary, part relationship banter, and part armchair anthropology, Why Are We Like This? explores the question at the heart of absurd trends, awkward interactions, and the collective obsession that begs to ask, Why Are We Like This?
Why Are We Like This?
Why Do We Have to Be Right?
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Why Do We Have to Be Right?
Why is being wrong so uncomfortable?
In this episode of Why Are We Like This?, Jarrod and Robert take a closer look at our need to be right—and what that need might actually be protecting.
Is being wrong really a threat to our identity, our intelligence, or our sense of control? Or have we simply learned to confuse being wrong about something with being wrong as a person?
The conversation explores vulnerability, ego, intellectual humility, and the ways our own experiences can limit how we see the world. Jarrod introduces the idea of our “keyhole perception”—the understanding that each of us sees only a portion of the larger picture—and Robert reflects on what happens when we become comfortable admitting that we don't have all the answers.
Along the way, they talk about changing our minds, why being open to new information is a strength rather than a weakness, and why sometimes the most liberating thing we can say is simply:
“I don't know.”
Because maybe being wrong isn't the problem.
Maybe our need to never be wrong is.
And perhaps the answer to life isn't having all the answers—but being willing to embrace the questions.
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Hello.
JarrodHello.
RobertHi.
JarrodHi. How are you?
RobertI'm good. I'm here with our special guest Deegs. Yay! He's helping us on the podcast today.
JarrodHe is our uh producer today. I want to produce the great. So I have a question for you.
RobertOkay.
JarrodDo you think you need to be right?
RobertOh, geez. Like right out the gate.
JarrodBim, bam, boom.
RobertI think I've said it many times on this podcast, and I've said it many times to you. I have for most of my life not felt the need to be right, but I have definitely felt the need to not be wrong.
JarrodFair enough. Um I think I need to be right. I think you do too. But that's because I always am right. Capricorn. Yes. It's a blessing and a curse. That's that's the um Go ahead. Here's the caveat to that though. Yeah. Because unless someone specifically asks me something, or I've already done the research on something, I don't open my mouth about it, I open my ears. That's true. So if I feel like I'm being asked or need to contribute information to a conversation, it's not for my benefit, and it's certainly not to change your mind.
SPEAKER_03Right.
JarrodIt's to give you the information you need for this conversation. Yeah, I would agree with that. When I say I need to be right, it's because I'm not right and you're wrong. And so what I have to say is going to change your mind. It's because I'm old enough, I've lived enough, I've been around the block enough times to have my own opinion about the way I observe the world happening around me. And I'm open to a lot of different interpretations.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
JarrodBut when my mind is made up about something, my mind is made up about it.
RobertRight. Because you've taken the time to research or learn or find out all you need to to be able to make that critical thinking decision for yourself.
JarrodExactly. And so what I'm doing is I'm sharing that observation or perception or opinion with you as something to mull over. What gets me is when people argue just for the sake of arguing. Yeah, that's like it like whatever the content is, it doesn't matter. Right. They just feel like being contrary or combative, or their sole intent in having a discussion or argument is to get you to change your mind so that it validates what they've made up their mind about. Right. And you need to do that for yourself. Yeah.
RobertFeel good about your own decisions.
JarrodHello.
RobertYeah.
JarrodLike I think it was the last episode or the episode before. It was like, uh, or maybe it hasn't even come at me. I think it's next week's episode that we pre-recorded. It's, you know, if a tree falls in the wood and no one's there to hear it, does it make a sound? And I think a lot of people feel that way about their own life. Right. And my point is like, well, you have to matter to yourself. You have to believe enough in what you believe that it doesn't matter if anybody else shares that opinion with you. Like the conversation that I was involved in with my dad uh this past Sunday at family dinner, right? Because he likes to throw those zingers out. Like he has his steadfast belief in being an atheist. But then he like goats people by saying something like, Where do you think your consciousness is? Right. And it's like, well, okay, I know enough at this stage of the game to actually not give him what my true answer is. So I respond with, Well, there's the theory that your consciousness actually lives outside of your body. And then kind of have a conversation that I think, especially in this situation, because you were listening, it's me just throwing questions back at him. Right. Right. Like I know that your idea is that your opinion is so strong that you're going to find a way to get me to change my mind. So I'm not going to give you what my opinion is. So you don't know what needs to be changed. But whether you realize it or not, I'm going to help you out in this situation by helping you ask the right questions of yourself.
RobertI also find in those conversation starters, we'll call them, um, are whether he wants to change your mind or not, it's it's sometimes because he doesn't know where you're at initially, but it's I I also find it's like you said before, the validation. It's like I think this of this topic. So I'm gonna present it as a topic and see if everyone else is on the same page as I am, aka they should be on the same page as I am. Or I want to feel better about the page that I'm on.
JarrodYep. And I handle that in two different ways. Either one, I will state my opinion, and if you come back to me with something that doesn't make me change my opinion, I will state my opinion one more time and why it's that opinion, and then I will just stop.
SPEAKER_03Right.
JarrodOr if someone's feeling really combative or contrary, then I use the line, you know, it really sounds like you're just trying to change my mind.
RobertBurn.
JarrodAnd that really makes people feel uncomfortable because even though it may be their MO, they don't want to be called out for that because that they even know if they're trying to do that, that that's not the point of a healthy conversation. Right. We should be able to have conversations with each other and share a difference of an opinion and not walk away feeling like there was a goal that was missed because someone's mind wasn't changed. Yeah. The goal is to just enrich the knowledge base that we both share about this topic and still be okay believing what we believe. Right. So I think the conversation then kind of turned into well, do you believe that there's something bigger than us out there or not? And my dad is a very he says that he's a gray person, but I think that he's actually very black and white.
RobertA gray person, as in not a gray alien. Middle of the road. Oh my god, middle of the road as far as uh well, he doesn't see things in a black and white right. It's neither this or that.
JarrodCorrect. However, every time we have these kinds of philosophical conversations, I leave feeling like he is a very black and white person because if he can't experience it, if he can't see it, if it's not tangible, then it's not a possibility in the realm of reality. Right. So the way that the conversation turned was first it was religion. And it's well, and I and I made it a point to not throw the baby out with the bathwater. There's a difference between faith and a difference between religion. I have faith just simply because I'm open to the idea that there is something bigger than us out there. Um, I have faith that there's other life forms because as vast as the universe is, how egotistical and arrogant is it for me as a human being to think I am the center of the universe? That all scientific-based intelligent life form starts and ends with the human experience. Right. Now, I don't have any proof that there's aliens. I don't have any proof that there's something responsible for my existence, but I don't have any proof that there isn't either. It's like a 50-50. You can't prove it as much as you can prove it.
RobertI I completely agree with that. And something that I that I mentioned too on the way home. Typically, when we have these moments, we ride home and we're talking about them again because it was either process, right? Yeah, we process exactly. And I I was reminded of a critical thinking class in college. And uh that often led to what would have been uh like philosophical discussions. Yes. Where as college students we're sitting around, we're presented with an idea and then we talk it out. Um, but there is a difference between philosophy and debate. And what you're describing is very much philosophical ideals. It's where you're presented with a thought or a concept or a theory and you discuss it, but you discuss it not with the intention of coming up with the answer and not with the intention of changing people's minds, but with the intention of opening people's minds so that they can develop not a truth for themselves and not a black or white solution, but a deeper understanding of what could be happening because there's no reason to know the answers for everything.
JarrodWell, and that was the other thing that I was trying to prove is that we don't have those answers. Just because we don't have them doesn't mean that one or the other automatically has to exist, and that maybe those answers are not part of why we're here. Yeah. So focus on the here and now. The argument became when he said that it sounded like I was choosing to believe in something other than this experience because I was afraid of my own mortality.
RobertAn afterlife.
JarrodAnd an afterlife, right? And I'm not afraid of my mortality. I used to be, but I live such a full in the moment life. If there's an itch, I scratch it so that if I if today's my last day, if something happens and I'm on my deathbed, I am not filled with regret or unfulfilled purpose. And so I don't want to die, but if I do, I will die knowing that I took full advantage of the opportunity of this human experience. So in doing that, my fear of death has been absolved, right? That's great. I think so. But the reason why I choose to believe in something bigger than just the human experience is because A, what a lovely and beautiful idea. Yeah. B, why not be prepared for something whether you know what it is or not? Like it's like the idea you dress for the job you want, not the job that you have. Right. Well, you don't know what that job is gonna be like until you have it, but you still prepare for it just in case. Yep. Right. And who cares if somebody thinks that I'm a fool for believing something that can't be proven? I don't care what people think of me. And if there is just blackness after we're gone, I'm not gonna be here or there to feel like a fool about it. So who cares? People are gonna forget about you 10 minutes after you die anyway.
RobertWhich also your father just loved.
JarrodUm which tells me that he has a fear of mortality. And yeah, my personal opinion is that there is a sort of uh a faux intellectual superiority in being atheist. I don't think that you have a lack of moral compass. I don't think that you are uh a deficient person, right? No, no, not at all. But I do think that there is something really beautiful about just being open-minded to the idea, to the possibility. Because the argument then continued to aliens, and it's like that's not possible because the next galaxy is thousands of light years away. And so how would they be able to get to us in our own time? They can't see us, and it's like, well, you yourself have even said time is a man-made construct.
SPEAKER_04Right.
JarrodAnd I think time exists because organic matter, it lives, it dies, it decomposes. That doesn't happen without time. But time is passage. Yeah, there's passage, but it's not linear. So, yes, a highly intelligent being might be able to know how to navigate the time-space continuum in its non-linear fashion so that those light years don't matter. And that's when I could see the gears starting to click a little bit. Am I really going to get anything over in conversations with him at the stage of life that he's in? No. But I kind of left it with, I'm willing to live my life as if just to be prepared because I don't want to come back and repeat this grade over again.
RobertWell, you also approach the conversations like this in a way where you also don't need to change the person's mind. Right. You speak pretty openly about theories, thoughts, ideas without needing to counter what they're potentially bringing to the table, whether they're open with it or not. And going back to what you said about the afterlife, I think what sometimes bothers people about that conversation, I would say, especially atheists, and this is a generalization because my mother is an atheist but does not think this way is that when you start to discuss the possibility of afterlife, there is a uh relatively unspoken, subconscious connection to religion because so much of what we think we know about the afterlife is slammed into our heads through organized religion as a means to uh drive people to do good, their moral compass that they have to have, they have to have someone else in a robe telling them what to do, otherwise they don't know what to do, right?
JarrodBut if you're doing something simply because you're afraid of going to hell, then you're not doing the right thing for the right reason.
RobertAnd that's the problem. If if you're concerned or uh uh consumed by the thought of the afterlife, and that is what's driving you to make decisions in your life, you're doing it wrong.
JarrodWell, it's like that that saying we saw the other day. Um if if you don't know what is right and wrong, you're not lacking religion, you're lacking empathy. Because you as a human being should be able to take your own experience of good, bad, hurt, pleasure, and say, Well, I don't want someone else to experience the things that make me feel bad, so I'm gonna go out of my way to not be a source of that for them. Absolutely. If if there is a meaning to life, that's it. I think the meaning is growth, it's expansion. And even I, you know, and I brought this up at one point, even the most uh uh revered scientific minds like Albert Einstein said, everything in this world comes down to energy. We also know energy does not die, right? So obviously, no matter what the afterlife might be, there is an afterlife where our energy continues on. And maybe what you believe is the afterlife that you create for your energy. You infuse and manifest your own afterlife with the energy that you put into how you live your life and the belief and the faith that you have now. Yeah. And it's not about telling people who's right and who's wrong. And that's what really gets me in conversations is like you said, I will offer up opinions and thoughts and ideals, but what I don't like is that hamster wheel, the loop-de-loop that people get caught in, like, oh, but I'm saying this to you. Yes, I heard you, yeah, and I still disagree with you. Oh, but if you really understood what I'm saying, you wouldn't disagree with me. No, I understand completely what you're talking about, but I disagree with you because my life experience gives me a different perception of the subject matter.
RobertThat's where, and you'll see me like step away or excuse myself. I don't make a scene of it. I'm not like I can't do this. No clarity, no politics at the table. It's not that. It's it's me recognizing that I don't enjoy being in conversations like that because of the circular nature of them. Yes. Um, not every time, but I I can typically cipher for myself. Like, this is one I don't really want to be a part of.
JarrodWell, not every conversation goes there. Right. But then once I've made peace and know that my opinion has been put out there, then I just kind of start having fun with the conversation. Which you're also very good at. Then I just start getting not maliciously, but I'm like, this is not going to be a situation where I'm going to get personally invested in this conversation because it has become about changing my mind. And if I don't believe what you believe, then I'm too ignorant to really understand what it is that you're saying. When in reality, the cognitive capacity and the knowledge gap is not on my side because I'm not shutting down your belief, but you are shutting down my belief. Whereas I'm making room for both.
SPEAKER_03Right.
JarrodAnd and that's when I realize someone doesn't see that, it's not my battle.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
JarrodIt's not my purpose to get somebody to see something that they are not either ready or capable of seeing because their experience hasn't opened that door for them yet. Right.
RobertWell, and I I appreciate how you do it in a way that isn't flippant or dismissive of them either. Like your comment of like, it seems to me like you're trying to change my mind. That's usually something like you said, either uh either shuts it down completely, because they start to shut down, or um it's almost like there's a realization on their part, like, oh yeah, this is kind of a circular conversation. Why are we allowing it or bothering to get this heated over something that neither of us will know the answer to because we don't need it?
JarrodRight. And I don't like to get heated over things that should be an expansion of thought. That's that's there's no point. There's no point. We should be excited and revel in the fact that we can expand our consciousness and grow our sense of mindfulness and self-awareness and just be okay with the fact that someone has a difference of an opinion. Yeah. So then the question to me isn't do we need to be right? But what is so threatening about being quote unquote wrong? And I think that's the real issue. And I think it comes down to the human ego. Our first job is to survive this experience. How do we survive that? By believing what we believe to be right so that we can be prepared to navigate this world. Right. So when we're wrong about something, we then have to question our perception, our experiences, our ability to take care of ourselves, our abilities to survive and navigate this experience, and that becomes extremely threatening. And if you're lucky or fortunate enough to get to a place where you're not afraid of the inevitable radical acceptance of reality, we're gonna die. Okay, I can't do anything about that. And I'm not gonna know what's lying on the other side of this experience. But what I do have control over is what I can do today with each moment. And that I would say go back and listen to our effort episode because that really plays into that. That gives me a sense of direction, yeah, of purpose. I feel fulfilled, I feel balanced, I feel content. I'm not, I mean, the only thing that I think I want in this world that I don't already have are solar panels. Because you said that the other day. I was like, what? I really don't envy anything in the world. You're you're right. Except people who have solar panels because I love air conditioning. Yeah. And we have it on all the time. And I don't like having to throttle back my discretionary funds during the summer months because I know those need to go to an electric bill.
RobertYou love air conditioning and money, and you can't have both.
JarrodSo I don't love money. I'm kidding, but I love I know, but I do you want to clarify I love the I love liberation. Right. Money is freedom, money is liberation. And, you know, as a Capricorn, we are very material driven, but that's because I think that if you live a life of want, then you live a life of distraction from the things that are truly important. So if you can give your things, yourself the things that really don't matter, the material thing, the car, the house, the clothes, all that you can give yourself that, then you're not so consumed by it. And it opens you up, it opens your resources up and makes you available to the things that really do matter in this world.
RobertYeah, I agree with that.
JarrodSo I think that rather than an importance of being right, I think the importance in these kinds of arguments and conversations is about not wanting to feel the threat of being wrong. And I say to you all the time, like when we're in discussions, I'm like, it's not right or wrong, it's about finding what works.
SPEAKER_03Right.
JarrodYou know, that that philosophy of being interdependent with each other. Because, like we say in the closing of each episode, we're all figuring this out as we go along. Why can we not give each other the grace and the space needed for us to indulge in our own path?
RobertYeah. I I agree with that. And that's something that I've had to search for and understand for myself through therapy and through practice, uh, the the realization that me being wrong in any situation, whether I've made a mistake or I have a difference of opinion that isn't correct, uh does not speak to my worth and doesn't speak to my value.
JarrodA hundred percent.
RobertAnd the confidence that I've always searched for in my life has resided in that. The confidence that I have been missing all these years is because of my preoccupation with needing to be right or pre perceived as right, aka. Perceived as valuable. And once I've unlocked the opportunity for myself to be like, I don't need anyone else to tell me I'm valuable when I value myself, that's the that's the confidence unlock. That's when I've realized, oh, I don't need to worry about any of that because I'm either putting the effort into myself or I'm putting my thoughts or my needs first, knowing that I'm not forsaking anyone else, um, but instead just focusing on me. And that's where the confidence really has an opportunity to shine. That's when when you when we watch it.
JarrodLet me step in real quick, yeah, because I think it's important that you realize, and we all realize, that just because we're wrong, i.e. vulnerable, does not mean we're powerless or that we're weak.
SPEAKER_03Right.
JarrodYou can be vulnerable, you can be open to changing your perception or opinion about something and still be strong enough to take care of yourself and survive what's thrown at you.
RobertAbsolutely. I know that now. Yeah. As a child, that vulnerability was exploited. And so we learn that, oh, if I'm vulnerable, I can be taken advantage of and all of that awfulness. But um, yeah, it it feels like what the the drag queens refer to on drag race as the glow up. I'm in my glow up era. But it really does feel like a situation where I've I've found that spark and that glimmer in recognizing how much I value myself, which is very cool.
JarrodAnd I think you as if you bring up drag race, I also think it's important when someone in your position authentically and organically has that epiphany about life and it's validated in the fact that I witness you living a very different life now than you did prior to this epiphany versus saying it on a TV show because it's what sounds good. Right. It's what you think the people and the judges want to hear because that deserves a reward. It's a button. Yeah. Exactly. A hundred percent. So do you think that there's a difference between the statement I was wrong and I am wrong?
RobertI was wrong. I am wrong. I I don't know that I understand the difference. If anything, like at face value, I feel like it has something to do with accountability, but I'm not sure which one it is. Um I was wrong sounds like an apology. I am wrong sounds like taking accountability.
JarrodInteresting. So the way that I see that is I was wrong is implying I made a mistake, my perception was limited based on my experience. I am wrong is taking being wrong about something and translating it to my self-worth or my value. Because I am wrong means that you are not willing to change or modify yourself to evolve with a new set of information or knowledge.
RobertOh, I get I see. I see what you're saying.
JarrodI was wrong is okay, this is what I believed with the level of information that I had about that topic at this time. That wasn't right. It was wrong. And it doesn't serve me. So now I'm evolving my perception or my opinion of the topic matter to allow myself the opportunity for growth. One is one is just a simple fact of the human existence and the human experience where you're gonna be right sometimes, you're gonna be wrong sometimes, but you allow yourself the opportunity to grow. The other one is sort of a an evaluation of your character, your personality, who you are as a person.
RobertYeah, it's a it almost seems like a sense of identity that we don't need to put on ourselves.
JarrodThat's that's how I feel about it. Yeah, that makes sense. And I think that's why it's so hard for people to say, I'm wrong.
SPEAKER_03Right.
JarrodI'm wrong. You may or may not be wrong. Yeah, it depends on your approach to the situation. You're only wrong if you shut down and refuse to look at the information that allows for your expansion of the topic because we all view our lives, I've said this many times before, through a keyhole perception that our personal experience has created for us. We are always the main character, right, in our own brain. So, do you allow yourself the opportunity to look through the keyhole to the wider world on the other side of that? Or do you keep pushing that keyhole back so that that is the only perception that you allow yourself? And that's the difference between I am wrong as a person versus I was wrong and how I thought about something.
RobertIt's funny as you described like the keyhole metaphor, I was reminded of Alice in Wonderland and watching that as a kid and remembering when she's fighting with herself with the keyhole, like to make herself larger, uh, but also can't fit the door, or make herself smaller so that she can fit through, but now she's in even more danger. Um, and I was I always sensed that there was some sort of meaning in that, even as a kid, not even really understanding it.
JarrodI think that that movie is riddled with metaphor.
RobertOh, absolutely. Lewis Carroll was insane, but he was a smart insane. Sure.
JarrodUm well, and what is insane? Right. Someone who doesn't look at the world in the way that the third-party majority of perspective views it.
RobertYeah.
JarrodSo it's it's labeled or titled insane.
RobertYeah. Well, it's like we were joking about watching Twin Peaks last night. Oh, yeah. Same thing.
JarrodSo bizarre, it's so out of hand, yeah.
RobertAnd that it it feels at times insane, right? But at the same time, genius in its insanity.
JarrodI think that even if you can't prove it with tangible evidence, it is much smarter to simply admit to the possibility that there is something bigger than us in the universe at play. To me, that makes more sense. I think that it is very short-sighted and ego-driven to kind of dig your heels in and say, no, the buck stops with human beings. We are at the top of the food chain, we are the only existence in the universe. This is all just some kind of accident from a big bang of gases that melded together. And it's like, yeah, but there's just way too much that can't be explained that you have to say, Well, I'm okay with whatever that answer is, but there's something else out there.
RobertYeah, I agree with that.
JarrodSo I I I just I look at people that have such a steadfast and dogmatic approach to their belief system as being short-sighted and black and white, and like I mean, how again, how wonderful and lovely and beautiful it is to think that there is something bigger out there. Yeah, there are answers waiting for us, it's just not part of our purpose here and now. This is like school. Our purpose is to grow and expand our souls so that we can be worthy of the place where we're destined to end up.
RobertThis this life experience is like school. Yeah.
JarrodTo me, yeah. Yeah. And what's interesting is my dad also studied Buddhism for a really long time. There's no proof of reincarnation, yet, reincarnation is one of the biggest values of Buddhism. So again, it's like pick a lane, even if picking a lane means you don't have a lane that you consistently ride in, you know, like you're open to all. Yeah. Madonna once said all paths lead to God. So, whatever God is for the individual, as long as you're living an empathetic life, no matter the path you take, you're going to get to where you need to be going. I think it's when people ignore that voice in the back of their head, when they ignore their conscience, which is the voice of our maker or our higher being communicating with us. Like we know when we're doing something that we're not supposed to be doing. And we know when we're doing something that we are supposed to be doing because of how it feels. The question is, do you want to ignore that feeling? Because in the moment, you are focused on a short-sighted result or goal. Yeah.
RobertRight. I agree with that.
JarrodAnd I think that smart people change their minds because once again, they're open to new information that allows them to evolve their opinion or perception of any given subject or topic.
RobertI feel like we should want to change our minds. We should want to know and understand more so that we can be open to other possibilities.
JarrodWell, and I respect when people admit that they were wrong about something. It feels good for me to say that I might be wrong about something because it relieves me of the responsibility and the burden of carrying that righteousness on my shoulders. Yeah. Right? Like, who am I to tell anybody else what's right or wrong except for what pertains to me personally and how I want to be treated or respected by others?
RobertRight. Thankfully, it doesn't happen very often because as being a Capricorn, you're very rarely wrong.
JarrodUm, and one thing that I did say in my conversation with my dad is that, you know, I think that we we all evolve at at different times. And he, you know, he's like, oh, you're barely 50. Like, well, what do you know? And it's like, well, I think my childhood trauma made me a very precocious individual my entire life. I was super observant. I'm paying attention to the things that most people are not paying attention to. Right. And I'm really good at putting things together to create the bigger picture. I was even tested when I was going through like career path testing. Like, patterns are something that I very easily recognize before most people realize there's even a pattern happening.
RobertI I have a question for you.
JarrodOkay.
RobertWhen you took that career testing, what was the result? Like, what did they tell you you would be good at? Sales. That's so funny. Um, did I tell you what mine was? Hairdresser.
JarrodWhat? Yeah. That's so bizarre.
RobertWe took that like ROTC military sponsored, everyone has to sit in that multi-purpose room and take the test at the same time junior year.
JarrodMine was like paid for third-party.
RobertOh, that so yours was a real test. Mine was how many of these poor souls can we get into the military? Yeah. Yeah. Hairdresser. So what do I do? I marry one.
JarrodAnd you're in sales. I know. And I'm I'm a hairdresser.
RobertI think they were alluding to creativity. But oh yeah. Ooh, weird. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. So, so what does that mean?
JarrodBut I'm also I I am in sales. Like, I have to sell my services, I sell my expertise.
RobertBut like I'm in marketing sales specifically. Right. Yeah. That's funny.
JarrodAnd both of them, though, here's the thing: the common denominator between our two careers is human behavior.
RobertYeah. I mean human behavior.
JarrodI should hope so. Otherwise, we've been doing it wrong. Um yeah. Well, no, both of our jobs deal with human behavior. Right. We have to be able to kind of analyze for me what this personality is. For you, what is the the market or demographic? Right. And then and we cater to that. Yeah. To make people feel like they're getting what they think they need out of the purchase or the service or the environment or the relationship. Yeah. And everything is about relationship.
RobertRight. That's really interesting.
JarrodYeah. Um, I have I have a Robert question for you.
RobertHere we go.
JarrodWhat's something you've changed your mind about in the last 10 years? That was like really uh that you use now as a tool to further your growth. Like not like what was the fish you caught, what was the moment when you learned how to fish by changing your mind about something?
RobertOh, okay. That that makes sense. Thank you. Um so for a very long time as a graphic designer, I thought that I would only flourish. I would only be any good at what I do if I'm working for someone else. If I'm working for a corporation or if I'm working for another business or another team, I am not the type of designer, or I'm not creative enough, or I'm not skilled enough artistically to be able to set out on my own and just do my own thing. Um, and whether that's fed to me or something that I took on or my type of design, like doing production design, kind of lends to, oh, someone else does the art and I finesse it to make sure it's ready to go.
SPEAKER_06Okay.
RobertBut I learned within the last 10 years, uh, through confidence and through understanding of like my own value, my self-worth, um, that I am fully capable and to flourish and to do what I need to do for my life, for my livelihood, regardless of anyone else, saying that it's okay that I do it that way. Um, so I can teach my own painting classes. I can do my own freelance. I don't have to be beholden to someone else giving me the timesheet or giving me the the the hourly rate or whatever. I get to do that and set that for myself. And that's not something that I felt I would ever be capable of early on in my career.
JarrodI think that's so beautiful.
RobertIt's pretty cool.
JarrodIt's like that moment in Wizard of Oz when she's like, Dorothy, the power's been inside you, you all alone.
RobertRight.
JarrodLike, you mean I'm orally standing. You just have to grab it. Yeah. You just have to, you have to feel important enough to grab what feels right for you at this world.
RobertYeah. I agree. It's it's been a very cool realization. I have a Jared question for you. Okay. Um So Capricorn, Jared Fisher, right at all times. Not the truth, but the perception from some people is that Jared can never be wrong.
JarrodAnd I think then they're not paying attention.
RobertAnd they don't know you. That's that's confidence. That's not you always have to be right. Correct. But when someone does disagree with you, what part about that actually bothers you?
JarrodI think what bothers me, it's actually what I just said, they're not paying attention because they interpret my contribution as an argument to change their mind, which tells me that that's what their goal is with me. Yeah. Right.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
JarrodPeople are often guilty of what they think others are trying to do or um, so they're not paying attention, they're missing the point, they're missing the exchange of information. And it's like, why do I want to waste my time, my breath, my energy, share my experiences with you if you are going into it completely blocked off because your goal and your ideal in your mind is to have this round table conversation where everybody at the end of it can sit back and applaud you because you were right.
SPEAKER_03Right.
JarrodLike that, that to me, that's what really bothers me because then you're missing the whole point of interdependent communication. Yeah. And I feel like it's such, it's just such a loss. You know, it's a loss. Um and I think it's also it's just it's arrogance. And and I think that another thing that bothers me is that at times I can't help but feel oh geez, for lack of a better word, betrayed by humanity at times. And those types of debates and arguments with that goal in mind kind of reinforces what I think like the older I get, the less I want to deal with people because people just have blinders on, they're just consumed with how others are perceiving them and life choices. Yeah. And you're you're you're missing the plot. Yeah. And so to me, every minute we have here on earth is so incredibly valuable. Wake up, shut the fuck up for a minute, and just listen. Yeah. Because you know me as my partner. I hate repeating myself. I don't want to get into an argument with you and just keep saying the same thing over and over again, which is what happens to me. So I get very bored very quickly when someone's like, when they're on the fifth time of saying the same thing that they've said. Right. And I'm like, I get it. I really, truly, honestly fucking get it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
JarrodYou don't get it. And once again, the differentiating factor is the fact that you see the room as only having space for one idea. I see the room as having space for both ideas. And all I want for you is to recognize that sometimes it is a different strokes for different folks scenario. But some people truly are not pleased or feel fulfilled if they haven't made some sort of progress in moving someone's mind in a direction that it's just not meant to go in.
RobertOr they're contrary for the sake of doing it.
JarrodAnd there are some things.
RobertI've I've experienced you in those situations where like you become bored or you become irritated. And and then you become loud because they're not listening to you.
JarrodBeing bored makes me irritated.
RobertRight. Well, and then and then those people perceive you as being angry, you fly off the handle, you we have to walk around eggshells around you. And I'll be honest, at one point I thought that of you too.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
RobertUm, early on in our relationship, but that's because I didn't understand how someone like you at your age at the time could have the confidence to be able to be able to just communicate what you're trying to say and also communicate when someone else is just full of shit and you're tired of circling around that.
JarrodBecause I don't communicate what I think I'm right about.
SPEAKER_03Right.
JarrodI communicate my observance and what that observance says to me. Yeah. So when people try to argue opinion, like, no, no, what you need to do is discuss experience. Have something to back it up. Like we were having a conversation with this one person about humor and about joke, and the the only argument was that is not something to joke about. That is not something to joke about. And it's like, okay, I get it, but let's sub separate the subject from the object of the joke. Right. That particular subject matter is not what is being joked about. But he, for as intelligent as he thinks he is, cannot separate the idea that just because that word or that subject trigger phrase was in the joke, how can it not be the joke? Right. And to the point where he was getting really terse and his voice was going up only to say the same thing that he said to me five times already. Right. And so it's like, shh, I'm fucking bored. Now I'm irritated. Now I think even less of you because you've just proven how ignorant you are in this situation. And once again, it was a very clear demonstration of you don't agree with me, so I'm gonna keep nailing this point until you do agree with me. And then when he got to the point where you realized that wasn't happening, then he started getting angry because once again, he only saw space for his perception in the room. Right. And I fuck off.
RobertFine, fuck off. I don't care. It's not, it's not worth the time anymore. No, that's what I that's what I feel. Like when you were discussing that, like as we're getting older, realizing we don't want to mess with or we don't have to have those conversations. I'm not worried for time. I'm not like, oh, I'm missing out or I'm wasting my time. But I do at times feel like, what are we doing here? Like without getting political about things. Seriously, what are people doing? Why are we fighting so much over stupid stuff? When if we just took a minute and actually just thought about what's happening in the moment and how it's affecting all of us, not just you or one group of people, maybe we can all just relax a little bit and stop focusing on the stuff that's meant to distract us and instead focus on what's actually happening and do something about it so that we can all have a really nice life.
JarrodI think the answer to that is that it's easier to focus on those trite things than it is to actually ask yourself the deeper questions. Right. Yeah, for sure. And those deeper questions can definitely breed an existential crisis. And and I've admitted I've had plenty. And I just got to a point where I was like, if I don't have the answer, I'm not meant to have it.
SPEAKER_03Right.
JarrodWhat difference does it make in my day-to-day life if I know why I'm here? Nothing. No, I'm just gonna enjoy being here. Exactly. It doesn't, it truly doesn't keep me from being a good person, a mindful person, an empathetic person, person that wants to breed joy instead of misery. Right. Right. I am a human being, I'm not flawless, right? But I put the effort in. Yeah. Because it makes me feel better. And when I feel better, then people around me will benefit from that energy rather than just becoming this like old miser. I have opinions. I have strong opinions, but they're just my opinions. And the truth is is my my group, my circle has gotten so much smaller. Because as I've gotten better in understanding how my confidence is of benefit, I realized that I can't keep people in my circle that look at me as a threat simply because I have a difference of opinion or simply because I'm strong. Right. And also like you know me better than anybody else does. Like I I might use harsh words, but I'm just communicating a point.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
JarrodAnd if you're going to be easily offended because I said fuck in a sentence, then you're not really somebody that I I want to be, you know, talk about walking on eggshells around people. Like I don't make people walk on eggshells around me. Right. I think the people that walk on eggshells around me do so because their intention is to cross that line and they know that if they cross that line with me specifically, I'm going to tell them they've crossed the line. Yeah. That's the eggshell. Right. And that's on them, not on me.
RobertYeah. That's I think that's absolutely correct.
JarrodLike you need to come correct.
RobertRight.
JarrodAnd then I will treat you with the respect that you deserve for coming correct. But if you're going to sit there and poke the bear in the zoo, eventually you're going to be one digit less.
RobertWell and when you say come correct, that's very much like but that's a that's like a ooh she better come correct. You're not saying that they have to be right. You're saying that they have to come to a discussion appropriately. They have to come appropriately respectfully. Right. That is what you mean by come correct. Correct. Just to make it clear for the other for all the girlies out there.
JarrodYeah it's mommy I like to hear what other people have to say and I'm open. Like my all of my responses to the conversation that we referenced from Sunday was okay, okay, okay. Not dismissive. Not dismissive accepting right accepting the only time that I offered any sort of debatable debate in my tone was when I felt that my mind was trying to be changed. And it's like no no and that's that's appropriate. I'm going to believe what I'm going to believe because I'm giving you the space to believe what you want to believe.
SPEAKER_03Right.
JarrodBut stop acting like whatever it is that you believe in this black and white fashion makes you intellectually superior.
RobertRight. And then let's not forget the conversation started with a hypothetical that was not meant to be answered.
JarrodAnd a total like gotcha trigger question too.
RobertAnd and presented in a way like there may not be an answer for this but it's like well what is your goal here? What is the point of this I I know.
JarrodI don't I don't think that there is and I think that um well and my mom did that at her dinner celebration too where she said I want to go around the table and everybody say what they think is the luckiest thing that ever happened to them. And immediately you can see everyone because this is my family for better or for worse you see everyone's wheels turning like you know that they're feeling whatever they have to say has to be impressive to the table. Right. Right. And it's like what is luck luck is it's yeah what is it right? It's in its baser form something that you have absolutely no control over. And what was my answer? The luckiest thing that ever happened to me was being born because I had no say in it. Yeah. Everything after that was a direct result or consequence or manifestation of my decision making process and how I choose to view the world and how I choose to view my place in it and how I work my way in and out and navigate the world to my benefit. Everything everything is about me in that context. Right. The only thing that's not about me was the fact that I was born. And whether you believe in God or the matrix or aliens or whatever there are more people that have not been born in our history than have been born. So the fact that I'm one of those souls energies gases tadpoles that crawled out of the swamp the fact that I'm one of those people that have been born and get to walk this earth and get to have this experience and know that the energy that is created through my existence will live on forever in some shape or form that's the luckiest thing that's happened to me.
RobertIt's pretty lucky.
JarrodSo both of my parents I think kind of do these things now where they try to elicit some sort of like intellectual conversation to dinner party talk. Yeah and and I like that I really do like that and I and I did like the question and I liked that my mom asked it. But what I didn't like was the fact that it very quickly started to feel inauthentic. Oh yeah. Because now it's like oh I gotta think of this it's just going to blow everyone else's answers away. And it's like stop stop just give it a minute just say it. Stop stop trying to be so fucking important.
SPEAKER_03Right. Like it's only have to be important to yourself.
JarrodYeah you only have to prove anything to yourself and the only thing that I have to prove to myself is that I don't know everything and that's okay. That's said I'm here to figure it out. How did it feel to be the only one to answer the question correctly I came correct I would not say correctly but I would probably say that I I felt my decision or my uh answer was the most authentic because it's how I truly feel yeah and not everybody can say oh because I was born but if everybody really felt that and everyone was like oh shit yeah the luckiest thing that happened to me was being born because if I wasn't born I wouldn't have anything to talk about to say to make decisions over but and that would be great. And we'd all have a laugh about it and then we'd move on to some other subject or or context. That the thing for me is whether it's friends family clients colleagues whatever I like conversation that feels authentic that feels organic I hate small talk I hate trying right just trying try hard blow hard just fuck off yeah like figure it out figure it out come to the table correct and and you can have anything you want from me like I I am an open book but if you if you're an inauthentic inorganic manipulative person that's only interested in validating your own belief system by bullying others into into seeing your way of thinking then not only do we not have anything in common but the second you start pushing back at me you're going to see a person that you really don't want to see. And it's not because I need to teach you a lesson it's because you need to respect that when you cross someone's boundary because of your own personal narcissistic darvo response bullshit some people are not going to put up with it. And that's not about making people walk on eggshells. That truly is about holding people accountable for the fact that they share this world with other people and they are responsible for the exchange of energy that they have with others. Done. Done. Pretty simple I think so let us know what you guys think about being right or being wrong. Don't forget to reach out to us and contact us we love getting your emails we love going over them.
RobertYeah and um or how would you answer Jared's mom's question?
JarrodWhat's the well now everybody's going to have to say being born.
RobertHow would you answer Jared's dad's question?
JarrodWhere is our consciousness? It's an intangible force it's not something that I that we can fully comprehend and we need to be okay with that. We need to be okay with not having the answers it's what makes this experience so fascinating and wonderful. It's like you know I think I've said this before my mentor said you have to look at education I'm going to say in this this example knowledge as a glass of water. When you think your glass of water is too full and there isn't room for any more dump some out and make room for more that's what it's all about because eventually whatever information or knowledge or experience you had 10, 15 20 years ago, there's something that you can experience or learn or know today that's going to supersede that. So make room for the most current relevant batch of information because that's how we truly can take care of ourselves and widen that keyhole perception that we all have as human beings.
RobertI totally agree. For me the the answer to life is not having the answer and embracing it. Yeah. That's all it is. How wonderful is that it's so freeing get to focus on the fun stuff. Right?
JarrodLiberation like relieving that responsibility of having to know right for who for who we've already proven in this podcast episode that when you're talking to people most people are too busy thinking about what they're going to say to listen to what you have to say anyway. So who fucking cares? Yeah. Just go out and have a good time and be good to others. That's right. And on that note we will see you guys next Tuesday. Bye. Bye
