Why Do We Want To Matter?

Why do we want to matter?

Is it survival? Ego? Legacy? Love? Or something even deeper?

This week, Jarrod and Robert explore one of the most fundamental questions of the human experience. From childhood bullying and people-pleasing to celebrity culture, social media, and the pursuit of fame, they examine why so many of us look outward for validation—and whether the answer has been within us all along.

Maybe mattering isn't about being remembered.

Maybe it's about how we experience our own lives.

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Transcript

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Robert 0:15

Hi, babe. Hi, honey.

Jarrod 0:17

How are you doing?

Robert 0:19

Oh, I'm good. It's hot outside, so I'm happy to be in the air conditioning.

Jarrod 0:22

It is hot, but it is summer. And I love me some summer.

Robert 0:27

I'll take it.

Jarrod 0:27

And I love me some air conditioning.

Robert 0:31

Yeah, I do too.

Jarrod 0:32

So we're talking about something today that I think is foundational to the human experience. And that is why do we want to matter?

Robert 0:44

Right.

Jarrod 0:45

And I think that that is a very complex and layered question to ask of ourselves. Um so yeah, why do we want to matter? And does everything that we do come back to wanting to matter? Like the saying, if a tree falls in the woods and no one's around to hear it, does it make a sound?

Robert 1:10

Right.

Jarrod 1:11

And then that brings up questions of like legacy and immortality and putting your name on a bunch of buildings, or having just the simple thing as procreating and having children. Is that a is that a does that give certain people a sense of immortality?

Robert 1:29

All kinds of fun midlife crisis type thoughts.

Jarrod 1:33

Or just like existential thoughts, really, because we don't know why we're here. We don't know what's waiting for us on the other side of this experience because we don't remember what we were doing, if anything, before we got here. So it's kind of like, well, darn, like, what do I what am I supposed to do? And I think the human ego has this sort of like built-in component to it where it it really wants to matter. And through feeling like you matter, you establish a sense of value. Unfortunately, in today's world, I think that celebrity culture and social media has really blurred the line between mattering and being famous.

Robert 2:19

Or what matters.

Jarrod 2:20

Or what matters, right? And you know, is being famous the same as mattering? So I'm gonna start off by asking a question of you. Okay. When was the first time you realized you mattered? Oh.

Robert 2:42

Right off the cuff. Um I didn't do my homework today. Um when was the first time I noticed that I mattered? Yeah.

Jarrod 2:52

Uh this is this is gonna be a little like two-parter question for you.

Robert 2:56

Yeah.

Jarrod 2:57

I I think And then you can volley it back to me if you want.

Robert 3:02

Yeah, I think I'll I think I will. Well, if it let me think on it. I I because I can't think off the top of my head. That something isn't popping in my head. So if you have one that you can think of.

Jarrod 3:14

Well, one did just pop into my head.

Robert 3:15

Okay.

Jarrod 3:16

I think it was sort of like the I I realized I mattered when the recognition of self-awareness happened. Okay. Like when I realized I was a human being on this planet like everybody else, when I was able to kind of put my memories and my experiences in sort of a chronological order and use those to start making decisions in the present and for the future. That's when I realized that I, as a human being on this planet, had a place in this world and the things that I did mattered. Now, it took me a long time to understand the potential of power in mattering because I was a very insecure person for a long part of my life. And so I did not realize that my actions and my contributions actually had the impact on other people that they did. But I knew that I mattered because I was getting reactions from people. I just didn't know how to guide that in a way that was productive to my goals because I also had to shift my goals as I got older and I matured.

Robert 4:24

Okay. Well, that's that's a good answer. Thank you. That makes a lot of sense. Um in perspective, I think that that makes me feel a little bit better about my answer. Not that I have to, but it's it makes more sense to me. I think I first noticed that I'm matter when I was probably four or five years old. And um my younger brother, uh, who was probably about a year old or so, um, was starting to talk but wasn't communicating very clearly to everyone, was using like baby talk or as he starts to figure it out. And so my I would communicate to my parents or to adults or other people around what he was saying, like my understanding. I was I was the translator, yeah. Right. Um and often just making things up because I all I also didn't know. But but it was it, but I would get attention. I would get attention for that. And I so you and I would get praise in in those instances where like, oh, we can't understand what he's saying, but Robert knows, Robert knows what he's saying, and and looking back on it, I they probably knew that I was often full of shit too.

Jarrod 5:50

But oh my god, it's like that sign language person who didn't know sign language for the police department. Oh my god, yeah, sorry to interrupt.

Robert 5:57

But it but I but that in like intrinsic value that I felt for myself in that moment. That tickles me so much, Robert.

Jarrod 6:07

Like 19 years we've been together, and I've just learned that little that little nugget, that little nugget of you, and it just it's so endearing. That's funny. I love it so much. It's so you and it's so innocent.

Robert 6:22

It really it was innocent. It was it was my my means at the time without knowing it, like it was probably the beginning of people pleasing for me, but also okay, it was a way for me to to know that I mattered, that I that I did have even though it wasn't my own voice, I did have a voice and and people listened to me when I said things because you could capture attention. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jarrod 6:47

That's interesting. Now, the back end of that question, which coincides with when I discovered I mattered, was also the feeling that I didn't matter. Because that sometimes forces a huge sense of self-awareness. And for me, by the fourth grade, as a feminine gay kid who didn't know I was gay at the time, but now, of course, looking back, I always knew, was mercilessly teased and bullied in school. And what hurt the most about that was the fact that all of that bullying and teasing was made to make me feel like I had no value and I didn't matter because I was different than what the norm or the socially acceptable experience told us to expect. Um and I I really had a hard time navigating that, and I became a very insecure and defensive person because of that. And I had to constantly feel like I needed to argue my value and without knowing why, had to prove why that treatment of me was wrong.

Robert 8:05

Yeah.

Jarrod 8:06

What about you?

Robert 8:08

I can relate to that a little bit. I I wasn't bullied a lot in school, like uh throughout all of my school. I really wasn't. There were maybe a handful of moments where someone would say something in passing or like quietly under their my under their breath. But I did have a lot of friends who who were very loyal to me and would stand up for me, even if I wasn't in the room, and they would say, like, cut that shit out. Yeah. Um so I I didn't have that experience with my peers, but I felt I feel like I um often struggled with making a case for myself as a young person, um beyond my sexuality, but just who I was outside of being able to be of service to people, whether that be my parents or my family, or even to my friends when I was a kid. Like I my I don't matter unless I can do something of value to someone. And I lived with that for a really long time. And and I still, honestly, I still struggle with that from time to time.

Jarrod 9:17

Well, what if the person that you're meant to do something for is yourself?

Robert 9:21

Well, that's what my therapist would say. Um and that is that is something that I do uh remind myself of in those moments where where I am I try before I take any action, I try to think am I doing this for myself or am I doing this because I'm hoping for positive reinforcement or attention from someone else? And sometimes they blend, and sometimes I am getting both, but I have to remind myself which one is more important and what are my motives in actually doing it.

Jarrod 9:54

Yeah. And I think that that's something hard to kind of come to terms with because it forces you to turn the magnifying glass around on yourself. And that's I think that's a very hard thing for us to do because we are kind of bred with the uh don't be selfish, think about other people first. But then the older I get, the more I kind of adhere to the adoption of like the airline oxygen mask philosophy. You have to put your mask on first before you can help someone else. Right. And so I think the older I get, the easier it is for me to have that magnifying glass turned in on myself. Because then the more I look at myself, the more time I spend with myself, the more comfortable I become in my own skin and the less of a stranger I feel to myself. And the more I'm able to create an image of myself that's from me rather than the influence of other people. Yeah. And I also got to a point where I realized, you know, through junior high, if these people have such horrible things to say about me, why do I value their opinion so much? Because they clearly don't know me, because I just want to be a kind person that gets along with people and has a fun experience. So by the time I hit high school, there really was no more teasing or bullying because I feel like I started to exude a sense of confidence that came very early, if not premature, because of the bullying and that survival instinct to argue who I was, like you said a moment ago. Yeah. It just it just came. And, you know, I I I really did argue who I was to the point that I did it even long after I needed to continue to do it, to the point where it became counterproductive. I became a combative person rather than somebody that just understood the importance of my own boundaries and how to communicate those with people. And through that, also learning, you know, the concept of not taking it personally.

Robert 12:06

Yeah.

Jarrod 12:07

The way that other people treat me has nothing to do with me and everything to do with them. And then I have the power to choose if I want to continue to engage in somebody that continues to overstep or cross boundaries with me because they can't get their own shit together.

Robert 12:21

It's interesting because I I feel like yours may have been a response to stimuli, right? Whereas mine was a proactive prevention of stimuli, where like I I would take the steps necessary preemptively and in a mind-reading way to try to make sure that everyone was happy around me so that I wouldn't have to deal with any of the potential negative consequences.

Jarrod 12:49

Yeah.

Robert 12:50

And often doing that would provide its own negative consequences, if not immediately, but over time, that the exhaustion that it takes to to not just people please, but the exhaustion that it takes to try to uh think so far in advance just to protect yourself.

Jarrod 13:12

It's it's high maintenance for both parties. Right.

Robert 13:16

Yeah.

Jarrod 13:16

And I think it also goes to a sort of inherent belief in oneself that you cannot take care of yourself. Right. So you have to kind of plan and, like you said, preemptively strike every possible situation to navigate it safely rather than just doing for yourself. And then if conflict arises, being confident enough in yourself to know that, hey, I'm not gonna worry about that until it happens because I know that if it does happen, I'll be able to handle it. That was a big lesson for me and my growth process.

Robert 13:54

I think it was for me too. I I for a long time, my sense of whether I mattered or not, especially in situations of conflict, was not I wasn't so concerned about being right. I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't wrong.

Jarrod 14:10

And that has been sort of a perpetual conflict in our relationship for a long time because you kept in situations you would keep arguing why you aren't wrong. And I kept trying to tell you, I'm not telling you you're wrong. Yeah. I'm saying this isn't working and we need to figure out a way to make it work.

SPEAKER_01 14:31

Yeah.

Jarrod 14:31

And you wanting to feel like you were not wrong was a stopgap in our communication and moving forward. And we learned how to identify that with the help of therapy, both individual and couples. And through identifying it, learned how to navigate it. And so now, if some of those old triggers happen in either one of us, as the partner, we can say, Oh, okay, yes, got it. I'm gonna give you a minute to sort that out, and then we'll come back to this.

Robert 15:06

And that's been really helpful uh in that in that process. But also, I think the most beneficial thing to happen is at some point I recognized the strength in recognizing when I'm wrong. The strength in recognizing, like, oh yeah, I made a mistake, and that's okay.

Jarrod 15:26

That is okay. Like I said in I think our effort episode, failure is a part of the scientific process. Why can it not be accepted as a part of the human experience?

Robert 15:37

Right. There's there's power in being able to own up to it and learn from it and then move on from it.

Jarrod 15:44

I think because in wanting to matter, there's a certain amount of wanting to feel like we belong. And if you're wrong, then the message is you are not good enough to belong.

Robert 15:59

Right. Like imposter syndrome.

Jarrod 16:01

100%. Yeah. And and I think that some of that also, I think that's I'm gonna reword that. I believe that that is deeply rooted in our childhood experience. And I think wanting to matter is almost survival instinct because if we don't matter, if we aren't valued, if we aren't seen, how are we going to be taken care of? And if your childhood has put you into a survival mode because of trauma, then you carry that into your adulthood. And as you start to learn social parameters and working with people and being a part of society and kind of learning where you learn to fall into society, I think you're able to better navigate that. And for me, I was able to slowly get out of that counterproductive survival mode. And like I said in previous episodes, stop thinking that things were happening to me and realize that things are happening for me and able to grow from those negative experiences because I decided that those were not negative experiences.

SPEAKER_01 17:13

Yeah.

Jarrod 17:13

They may have elicited a negative response or emotion in me, but again, it's all perception and learning to keep the past where it belongs, learning to not hold grudges, because the people that made fun of me were probably even more insecure than I was. They were just able to better conform to societal standards, even at that young age, and their safety in numbers. Whereas I was okay standing out on my own, being different, because by the time I realized being different was going to garner that kind of attention, it was already too late. So I was just like, okay, pedal to the metal, let's let's do this. And I will fight my way through this time in my life because in the back of my head, I think I knew that this was not going to last forever. I just needed to make it to the end of the year. I needed to make it to the end of grade school. I needed to make it to the end of junior high. Once high school happened, it was a completely different experience for me. Um, but I also did not deal with the trauma from my early childhood. So even though there was an escape and the pendulum kind of swung to the other side for me, by the time I became an adult, I developed a horrible anxiety disorder because all that crap from my past really fueled that like inner saboteur voice. And once I was fully responsible for myself as an adult, because I moved out on my own when I was 18, like before I even finished high school, I was out of the house. And after like the honeymoon period of that freedom wore off, the sense of responsibility just started to weigh so heavy on me. And the idea that I couldn't take care of myself, I wouldn't be able to take care of myself just compounded day by day. And now looking back, I'm like, okay, cool. I got what I did there. And now that is going to serve me well. But for a big portion of my life, it haunted me. And I just couldn't figure out why I was the way that I was because I was refusing to accept all of me.

Robert 19:34

That's interesting. I I don't think I have a moment or or like a pinpoint for myself in that respect. Because I went from living in my home with my family to living in the dorms immediately and then going from the dorms. I don't think I I lived on my own, like actually on my own, until I was uh in my mid-20s. Which is when we met. Yeah. And it and that was brief. I really I only had an an apartment to myself for a brief time. I often had roommates.

Jarrod 20:09

And I was like, you're giving that up and moving in with me.

Robert 20:12

Yeah, pretty much. Um I would say maybe like a year tops total between two places. But um I don't think I ever had that moment where I felt like I wasn't able, or they like the anxiety was hitting in that same way because I always felt relatively taken care of, yeah, either by continued support from my parents or living in the dorms and the safety in involved with that, like living on the school, like or just also just moving in with you. Like there was safety and and confidence in that um for nice reasons, but also because you were relatively established by the time that I had met, and not in age, but like I know your career had started, you had a little bit of a head start, so to speak.

Jarrod 21:03

I was still just starting out though. I I s when we met, I it's god, it's so crazy that you say that because that is not where my head was at. It's like when I found that picture of myself the other day in that old photo album in the garage when I was like 26 or 27. Yeah. I was like, dang it, why was I so hard on myself? Like I look at that picture of myself, it was like after I lost the baby fat before the adult fat came on, and I was like, I would do me. Like, yeah, oh my God. I it just it's so interesting how the messages we can tell ourselves can blind us to the reality of a situation. Um, and it's it's difficult to navigate that because in doing so, you have to put trust in what other people are reflecting back to you. And sometimes people aren't always honest in that, or they have an ulterior motive in reflecting something back that's not organic. So you have to learn how to separate the positive feedback that you get from the negative feedback that you get.

Robert 22:03

Well, and at that time, that would have been such a nice message to have had or to have understood and grasped. Yeah. But we also didn't know how to trust people fully in that sense. If someone's saying something to us along those lines, there are either ulterior motives or they want to sleep with us or they want to get something from us or um or like family is trying to butter you up to get something from you. Yeah. So like how who do we who do we trust other than um like the the handful of friends who like in my case I'm still friends with today who who've always been constant in that way. There have been ups and downs, but I could always trust it.

Jarrod 22:46

Yeah. And that's something that was also difficult for me because moving around as often as I did, I don't have childhood friends because you know, I could you uh I I couldn't hold on to anything and I tried to, um, but it's you know, I think so much of life can be out of sight, out of mind. And so, no, I I have like the oldest friends that I have go back to high school, and they're not even a part of my life. They're they're Instagram friends. Like that's how we keep in touch. So the friends that I have in my adult life right now were people that I met as an adult.

Robert 23:28

And that's that's sad too. I think about that a lot, especially with people that I have known over the years. I've I working either at Disney or going to college and even recent jobs from the last 20 years that I've had, um I've I made a lot of really good close friends. Yeah. And it's sad to think peop people like Cosette, like who we've had on our podcast before. I love Cosette, and she's always been such a wonderful supporter and just fun to be around. And I feel like our friendship isn't broken, hasn't fractured in any way, but it is that out of sight, out of mind where we both have two completely different paths that we've gone and we live in different places and we have different jobs, and it's totally different from when we lived together in college. And it's hard in those moments to I want to tell her she matters to me. Right, right. And because I feel that I matter to her, but at the same time, it's like, but also it's just tough to make our schedules sink.

Jarrod 24:31

So you matter, but I mean, and I think also too, like there's a balance between effort and expectation.

Robert 24:38

True, right?

Jarrod 24:39

Like you give what you can. And I think that as long as the intention is authentic, whatever you can bring to the table, whatever you can deliver, it's interpreted that way. And if somebody takes it the wrong way, or they take it personally, or they take it negatively, that's something that they have to deal with. Because unless you are truly coming to the situation with some sort of malicious intent, right, there's no reason for people to think other than what you are giving unless their inner saboteur voice is telling them things that they don't need to be hearing.

Robert 25:13

Which has happened before too. Oh, totally. Yeah. So I I I that sound that makes sense.

Jarrod 25:18

I mean, it's it's why we want to matter, is because we are human. It's a part of the human experience. And one of the things that I think has really clouded that is Instagram and celebrity culture. And I think people confuse being famous with mattering.

Robert 25:38

Yeah, I would agree with that. I I was joking when we were thinking about this topic. Um insane. Like I I would not want to be famous. But I I I honestly don't think that I would want to be famous. I think that I would be really uncomfortable with it. Yeah. I think that I would have difficulty managing the level of visibility of my life to everyone and anyone. Um, not that I need to keep it secret, right? But I would not feel comfortable knowing that eyes were on me at any given moment. Even just like at the store, people looking at me. And I don't know. The the the idea makes me uncomfortable. Um I don't equate the two. Like, I don't I don't think that a famous person inherently matters. I don't think that they don't matter. I think that's healthy. Yeah, but I but I don't think that like, oh, Ann Hathaway is famous, so she matters. She's she gets the check mark, she gets the gold star.

Jarrod 26:33

That's the challenge with celebrity culture and reality TV, right? Like if you are recognizable, then you must matter. And I think it's like with podcasts, we've talked about not having video because we're a podcast and our podcast is conversational. So what would being on video bring to the content that we're delivering? Absolutely nothing. Yeah, absolutely not. But but so many people that have podcasts are now putting their face out there because I think that again, if you have a podcast, you're putting yourself out there because you want to be heard, you want to matter. But then that sort of celebrity bug creeps in and it's like, well, I have to be recognized for this now.

Robert 27:21

Yeah, it's it's interesting because I know that there is a market for video cast or video podcast or whatever you call it too. But I also think that those are kind of different things. Like when you look at Amy Polar and her podcast, which is also simultaneously a video podcast, so you can either listen to it or watch it. Yeah, that kind of makes sense because Amy Polar is also an entertainer and you want to see her do the things, you want to see her interact with her celebrity friends. Um do you though? Well, I don't personally.

Jarrod 27:54

See, and I don't either, and I think that that's also that's sort of like a subtext of what we're talking about, too, is how celebrities and people who are, for lack of a better word, fortunate enough to be in the inner circle of celebrity, yeah, kind of create a cannibalistic environment and hijack a lot of opportunities. So, like first it was, you know, you you stopped seeing models on the cover of magazines and you started seeing actors on the cover of magazines, right? And then it was ads and then it was podcasts, and then it was um like OnlyFans, right? So it's like every time the average Joe finds a platform for them to put themselves out to the general population in an attempt to matter, to mute it. Yeah, here comes the celebrity culture to come and gobble it up and take it up for themselves. So, I mean, nothing against Amy Polar. No, because I really like her and I think she's brilliant and she's talented. I get what you're saying. If I can get the same exact uh content just listening to her podcast, then I could watch a video of it because there isn't anything happening in the video that I need to be visually aware of in order to get with what she's delivering to me. I agree with that. So I think that, you know, and then the question is do people really want like those that are thirsty for it? And and we have we know people like that, right? Those who are thirsty for fame, do they really want to be famous or are they just so petrified of feeling like they don't matter? That to them, the allure of fame is if everyone knows who I am, if I'm recognized for who I am, then I matter. And I think it's why so many celebrities and actors who get to that position end up in really tragic ways, like Dana Play-Doh, Britney Murphy, Heath Ledger, right? And we're separating true talent from the celebrity culture, which can be cannibalistic, can destroy real talent because you have these people that get to this place that has been sold to us in this country and the general population as sort of the brass ring, the pinnacle of existence is to be a celebrity where everybody gives you everything that you want. And then, like Matthew Perry being a prime example of that. And he even admitted that. Yeah, he was like, I just felt hollow and I needed to be famous, and then I got famous and it didn't fix me, it didn't make me feel better.

Robert 30:38

It is our version of royalty. We don't we don't have kings and queens, but we we create them through celebrity, right?

Jarrod 30:45

And it's and it's just like in school like why are the popular kids the popular kids? Because everybody knows who they are because of their personality, the activities, the contributions in the classroom.

Robert 30:58

Or what they've done.

Jarrod 30:59

What they've done, their their accomplishments, um, their what they're wearing. What you know, do their parents have enough money in the bank to give them everything that's trending in that moment? Like for my generation, it's like if you had a swatch watch, that was a pretty big deal, right? Um, and each generation has, I think, something, but now everything has become so diluted with the mass marketing and exposure of social media.

Robert 31:31

Yeah, I don't even know what that would be now. Like for me, it was it would probably be like a podcast. Yeah, it would be recognition. Oh, it's followers. Followers. Of course. Yeah. No, we've seen that in TV. Yeah. In in in TV shows or movies about youth culture, right now. The popular kids are the ones who are always on their phone. They're always they've got a social media font. That's exactly what it is.

Jarrod 31:53

And and and and it's infiltrated. Like people get discovered and stunt casted in movies because they have a lot of followers. You can become a quote-unquote supermodel if you have enough followers on your Instagram account.

SPEAKER_01 32:08

Right.

Jarrod 32:09

So it's not even about talent, it's not even about your passion or desire to contribute to something that genuinely and authentically speaks to you. It's about do you have not even that it factor, just but do you have the ability to produce yourself in a way that is eye-catching and grabbing to the general population? Or were you just fortunate or lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time that a number of eyes landed on you, generated enough engagement and clicks that the algorithm then pushed you out to everybody else? And I think what I really enjoy about what we do with this podcast is that we're not on the back end of our page constantly checking our metrics. We're not making sure that we have this many followers. I mean, whatever happens with this platform, it's what's supposed to happen with it. But I really relish in the idea that we're just fortunate enough to have this platform to put our ideas out there, not to the highest number of ears that can listen to it, but to the people that it truly speaks to. And I think that's, you know, with the back end of celebrity culture, is, you know, like indie movies, people who are doing what they do because they absolutely love it, not because they're gonna become a household name.

SPEAKER_01 33:37

Right.

Jarrod 33:38

And I think that's it's an important distinction. Like, do people that chase fame really want to be famous, or do they just want to know that they matter? So with people who want to matter, sometimes you have them chasing fame. Sometimes I think it comes down to a sense of legacy or immortality. Why a lot of people have children, you know, and having one or two children, fine, but then you have people six, seven, eight children. It's like, how further down the bloodline do you have to feel your name is going to go so that once you're gone, people still remember who you are? Like it was said, I think we were watching something the other day, and someone said, People, oh, it was it was uh a designing women episode. And it was the one where Delta Burke, as as Suzanne, was very upset because they actually acknowledged her waking on the TV show and her character. And Dixie Carter's character, Julia, said, doesn't matter what people are going to think about you because they're gonna forget you 10 minutes after you're gone. And so I think that the idea of wanting to matter also comes down to the fear of mortality. And if I don't leave a mark, then what did I do? And maybe the point isn't to have done something, but to have experienced something.

Robert 35:05

Yeah. I it's interesting because I feel like I despite whatever idiosyncrasies I may have, ego doesn't really drive me too much when it comes to that kind of stuff. So I don't I don't think too far into what kind of mark am I leading necessarily. Maybe it's because I don't want to have kids, or I also don't see the significance in kids perpetuating me. That makes no sense. I how many kids do you have to have before you feel like your bloodline is long enough? And why is one kid not as sufficient as six kids when they're probably gonna live as long? Whatever. Because it's not fixing the problem. Yeah, right. I think that's why it doesn't make sense. Yeah. Um but my yeah, I think I think you're right in in that it's uh for me, it's about living the life and experiencing it rather than leaving the mark for other people. I would much rather leave the mark for myself.

Jarrod 36:04

Well, and ultimately being the one that you matter to, I think is the key. Right. Because we are the ones that are in charge of our well-being. We are in control of how we perceive and react to the world that's happening around us. So if all of your value as somebody who matters is placed in other people, well, people can be fickle. They can like you one minute and then not like you the next minute. So if that's where if that's the basket that you're putting your eggs in, well, when that basket's not there, what do you do with your eggs? You have to weave your own basket. You have to get to a point where you are comfortable enough with yourself and like yourself enough that you can be the one that matters for yourself. That to me is true legacy. Because I you could be the most celebrated, well-known person in the world. Some at some point in time, you're gonna be forgotten about. Cary Grant, one of the biggest movie stars of his time. You ask most people of this generation or the previous generation who Cary Grant is, they don't know. So, I mean, unless you are someone like Marilyn who paid the ultimate price for her celebrity at 36 years old, you know, everything has an expiration date for the most part. And then you think about the people that really have lasting notoriety, and is then you have to ask yourself, is that because they're famous or infamous? And those are two very different things. You know, it we try to, with an exception here and there, stay away from the political side of things in this podcast. But I don't think you can talk about something like wanting to matter and insecurity and legacy without addressing the fact that Donald Trump is just running around and trying to put his name on every single thing that he can. Literally. Literally doing that, doing that because and and to me, that that does not speak to him as being this extraordinary human being like Mother Teresa or Gandhi. Right. This screams someone who is so insecure and so afraid of his own mortality that he thinks that if he does the things that he's trying to do, that he's somehow going to escape the inevitable. And you can't. It's going to happen to all of us at one point in time, in one way or another. So why not make peace with that? Be your own best friend and be the person that matters to you the most.

Robert 38:50

I think that's also a good example of uh misuse of energy and focus. I I I don't know him personally. I there are things I don't like about him, but I I find it hard to believe that if he weren't so focused on putting his name on buildings and leaving his mark on things and and changing things up for the sake of doing it because he is who he is, uh he may be more inclined to use that time and effort and energy on things that actually matter. Yeah. That could actually benefit everyone and not just him.

Jarrod 39:35

And I think that he's you know, he's not alone. I think that there are a lot of people that operate that way in this world, but everybody has a different level. You know, he he has had the privilege and advantages that have thrust him into the spotlight.

Robert 39:51

Right.

Jarrod 39:51

And I don't think in a good way, although I think I think he thinks that it is in a good way.

Robert 39:56

And it's not new. He's got his casinos and he's got his towers, and it's it's always kind of been like that.

Jarrod 40:02

Yeah, and and we know that kind of person on multiple levels. It's sort of like, you know, the the country club douchebag who thinks that if he has all the coolest toys that you know he he wins. It's uh like that movie The Joneses with Demi Moore and David DuCovny, right? Uh, which is a brilliant movie, by the way. And it's it's about, and we've talked about this many times, you know, how how marketing sells us the idea that we are less than if we don't have this or we don't have that, and how people miss the opportunity to truly experience life in a way that is profound and compelling because they are chasing these tangible goals that don't do anything to make you a better person. They don't fill the void, they don't make you a whole person. And again, I reference Matthew Perry, who at a very early age rose to astronomical fame and suffered a very tragic end to his life because, as he admitted, everything that we're told is again the brass ring, the pinnacle of existence, did not fix that loneliness, did not fix that void, did not fix that feeling that he didn't matter. So, what did he do? He chased other things that he was given access to because of his celebrity. So then the question is is like, well, is celebrity a good thing or a bad thing? Is fame a good thing or a bad thing? Because there's so many people that just don't know how to handle it. And like you had mentioned, you don't know that you would feel comfortable with it. And I had like my little brush of fame, right? Like I was I was on the TV show Blowout, and I remember while it was airing, there were moments where I would get recognized for it. And I mean, we're talking like like below D list, right? Like, I mean, really still feel like it was uh kind of what the hell happened moment. But I remember being at Disneyland with my friend Alan, who was on the show, and people asking us, Hey, are you on the show blowout? And like you think that when you get into a situation where you're gonna be recognized that you're gonna know how to handle it. And it was weird because it first of all, it caught me off guard because I wasn't expecting it. And I really didn't know how to handle it. And then it happened a couple more times and I got more comfortable with the idea of it. And so it was less about, yes, this is me. Yes, I'm on this show. It was like, yes, hi, how are you? Like, I think one of the things that makes Henry Cavill such an endearing celebrity to us is that he's a he still acts like a human being. He doesn't take the celebrity for himself, he gives it back to the people. And he's relatable in that regard. And he touches that part of us that can't have that, but might yearn for it. And and when you can do that, even as somebody who's not a celebrity, just at the store with the checkout person, if you can make someone feel like they matter, I think that is the most important thing. And that gets us closer to feeling like we matter for ourselves because when we lay our head on our pillow at night, we know that we're good people.

Robert 43:24

Yeah. It's interesting. I wonder if that's also just the a sensibility in uh in the UK. Uh where like I because I don't you don't see a lot of footage of TMZ chasing Henry Cavill around. So we don't see it.

Jarrod 43:40

But you don't see them chasing Meryl Streep around either. I I I think that we in the bubble that we live in are so quick to say, oh, it's so much better on the other side of the pond. Well, what I was what I was I'm sorry I did interrupt you. That's okay.

Robert 43:53

You matter. So what what I was kind of alluding to was like there's there's the potential for that sensibility, but I also think so much of it has to do with the individual making the decision to be able to shut a lot of that off and is still present at award shows, still shows up to work, still does what they need. When it comes to press junkets and things like that. But it's not uh it doesn't really we don't see it going beyond that. And with Henry Cabill, he feels like someone who's just so down to earth and still in tune to who he is. Like the guy sits at home and plays Warhammer and paints many figures, builds computers, yeah. Like he's a straight up nerd, and I think that he he loves about himself and he embraces that and he still does what he needs to do for his job, but doesn't feed into the machine, so to speak, in the way that I don't think Meryl Streep does. I don't think that she she'll show up for a role, she acts a lot, she thankfully has a lot of jobs, yeah. Um but it that's not that's not part of her job. Um and I think that some people, whether they choose it for themselves or not, do make that a part of their job where they have to be present at every moment. They're if they're not followed by paparazzi, they're calling the paparazzi to let them know where they'll be. Um whether that's disingenuous or not. That's what they've determined is the job for them. Um so I I feel like that's that element of famous versus mattering too is like is is the job then to be famous? Is the job to be on that Kardashian level uh notoriety where you are famous for being famous? Or do you matter because you have uh enlightened us or you have expressed yourself creatively in a way, whether it be through film as an actor or through music as a musician, uh, in a way that we embrace and that lifts us up in a way that that we feel, oh, that that person matters because what they've created also matters.

Jarrod 46:09

I think it depends on the contribution and how secure you are in your ability to deliver on the thing that you're getting paid to do. And that's the difference between an actor and a celebrity. The Kardashians have the fame that they have because that's what they chased, because they're not talented enough to do anything else.

Robert 46:29

Not really. They are just kind of spokespeople. Yeah, they don't they're not makeup artists, they're not actors.

Jarrod 46:37

No, they're they're like hedge fund people. Like they don't do anything to actually make the money, they make their money by handling other people's money. Yeah. The Kardashians don't, yes, are they in TV shows? Do they walk runways? They they emulate things that other authentic people do, but only because I think that they are so desperately insecure to feel like they matter. And for whatever reason, the universe is bestowed upon them, whatever it's bestowed upon them, but happy people don't behave the way that they behave.

Robert 47:14

I also think that the brands that attach themselves to people like the Kardashians are equally as desperate to be of interest. It's a machine that feeds itself. They desperately want to matter too.

Jarrod 47:29

It's a machine that feeds itself. Yeah. And the reason why someone like Meryl Streep doesn't have to be in TMZ and be photographed everywhere is because when she shows up to do her job, she does her job and she does her job well. And I think that, you know, the higher you get in the pyramid, the smaller space there is for people. So you have people that are clamoring to do all different kinds of things. And when you are chasing fame because you are afraid of not mattering, or you are afraid of immortality, you start doing other things to propel yourself rather than just that one core thing that you feel like you were really meant to do. You start doing ads, you start taking magazine covers, you start doing commercials overseas, you start only fans, right? And it's like, okay, fine. I mean, it's a free world, you know, you can do whatever you want. But I think it all comes down to why am I doing this? Am I doing this because I want to matter? And is this what's going to make me feel like I matter?

Robert 48:37

I think there are cases too when they're literally just doing it for a paycheck. And I think that that's okay too. But I would appreciate if they were also just honest about it. Right. Where you have that um, the actress from The Sopranos who was not getting any work and was heavily in debt and practically homeless. Drea DeMateo. Yeah, and then started in OnlyFans and made millions and is like living a very good life now. That that makes sense to me. And she said as much. She's like, I wasn't getting work and I needed the money, and I found a way to get the money.

Jarrod 49:09

I'm not saying I have an opinion, but I have a thought about that. And that, you know, she garnered what she did on OnlyFans because she was recognizable as a celebrity. And what that did was push out the people who didn't have that celebrity, right? That could have done something with that platform. And I think that's why celebrity culture is cannibalistic because people become so desperate to do whatever they can to maintain a certain level, a certain status, right? Whether it's through reality TV, whether it's through social media presence, whether it's through getting the next gig, right? Yeah. And it depends on how talented you are. Now, I think Drea Di Mateo is an extremely talented actress. I don't personally think that anything that she's done on OnlyFans devalues or cheapens her efforts and her authenticity as an actress. I think it speaks more to the volatile nature of audiences that they can just kind of discard someone because they chose to focus on their craft rather than the celebrity of it all. And I think that sometimes, you know, when we're talking about actors like Meryl Streep, Susan Sarandon, Robert De Niro, Al Pacino, like they came up in a completely different time. Right. And they are so famous for their work that I almost feel like the nature of our lemming culture makes one feel like, oh, if you don't like Meryl Streep, then there's something wrong with you. So there's, you know, like I said at the top of the episode, this is such a layered and complex idea because I think it is probably the foundation of our human experience. It's wanting to matter. Why is that so important to want to matter? Because if I think if we feel like we don't matter, we lose our motivation for existence.

Robert 51:16

I think that I think that makes sense. Sometimes I question if any of it matters, but often that question doesn't involve me.

Jarrod 51:26

That's existential crisis territory. Yeah. And as somebody that spent a lot of time there, I'm gonna say, yes, it does matter.

Robert 51:32

Well, and I agree. I'm like, I'm very quickly out of that. Good. But I but what I'm saying is very rarely does the question come into do I matter?

Jarrod 51:44

Yes, you do.

Robert 51:46

And thank you. And who do you matter to?

Jarrod 51:49

Right? First and foremost, we have to matter to ourselves. Right.

Robert 51:52

And that's taken some time to get to.

Jarrod 51:54

And that's part of the human experience. That's part of the process, that's part of growing up and finding yourself and coming of age, and as the young kids these days say, adulting, right? It's all part of the process because if you don't go through the process, then how can you value the result of the process? Like I was having a conversation with my client today about our staycation, and I was like, oh my God, I just I love it. Like at this stage of the game, like the idea of that's what retirement being like, that that really feels attractive to me. And I kind of get like the whole trust fund baby appeal. But one of the points that we commented on is that it's one thing to have worked for something your whole life and then get to a point where you can stop and just enjoy the fruits of your labor versus never really having to work for something your whole life. The value is just not there. So I think that going through that process that you mentioned, getting to that point is important. And like the cliche says, it's not the destination that matters, it's the journey. So I think we need to start focusing on the things that really make us feel like we matter. It's not the toys, it's not the celebrity, it's not the social media followers or engagement. It's the things that make us fulfilled as individuals. And that's what I choose to focus on because there are so many tangible physical goals that we place for and on ourselves. Like you have to get the house, you have to get the car, you have to get the labels. Well, once you achieve all those things, what do you what are you left with? What do you do? Like then that happened to me. Like I thought, well, if I get all of these things, then that's gonna make me this kind of person who matters. Well, I worked my ass off and I got all those things. And it didn't make me feel like I mattered. So what do I do then? Okay, let's turn that magnifying glass around on myself. Let's try to develop intangible goals that really aren't ever going to be achieved. Like wanting to be the best person that I can be every day of my life, that's nothing that I'm gonna be able to say, oh, did that, all done. So every day I wake up with a sense of purpose. And every night I go to sleep with a sense of fulfillment because I've worked at that. And that to me, that sense of fulfillment and and purpose is what makes me feel like I matter because what I'm doing is I'm investing in myself. I'm investing in my own experience, I'm investing in my own growth. And ultimately, those are the things that I think truly make us matter.

Robert 54:45

Yeah, I would agree with that. I for me it really does come down to that, just mattering for myself. I was thinking when you have that adage of like you're born alone and you die alone, and that just feels a little fatalistic or like unnecessarily negative, like just deal with it. Life sucks. But but I think really a a good lesson in that vein, so to speak, is just like knowing that the most important thing is yourself, and it's not about selfishness, and it's not about um not caring about anyone but yourself. But I think it is very important to make sure that you matter to yourself first. Yes. Um I agree because that's what drives us to do our best work, it's what provides the confidence needed to carry ourselves through life, and it's what really not that it matters, but makes us pleasant to be around. I think that does matter.

Jarrod 55:45

So, and I think that that's that's the the tricky little thing about life and influence of external stimuli, is that we don't always catch ourselves saying things that in in the terms of biofeedback to ourselves can be detrimental. Saying, I don't know that it matters, everything matters. Now, is it something to get all worked up over? Maybe not, right? But it matters in the sense that if you are asking yourself a question that breeds self-awareness and mindfulness, then it matters, even if it's only to answer the question. So, with that, I'm going to leave our listeners with the question why is it important for us to matter? And what makes you feel like you matter? Just something to think about.

Robert 56:39

Yeah.

Jarrod 56:40

Good talk, babe. What's good? All right. Thank you guys so much for tuning in again. And uh, as always, we will see you next Tuesday.