Why Is Madonna Still So Relevant?

Few artists have shaped popular culture the way Madonna has. For more than four decades, she's reinvented herself, challenged expectations, sparked conversations, and remained at the center of music, fashion, and entertainment. But what is it about Madonna that has allowed her to stay relevant while so many others have faded from the spotlight?

In this episode, we explore the lasting appeal of the Queen of Pop—from her fearless creativity and business savvy to her willingness to evolve with the times while staying unapologetically herself. We'll look at the risks she's taken, the controversies she's embraced, and the influence she's had on generations of artists who followed in her footsteps.

Whether you've been a fan since the '80s or you're discovering her impact for the first time, this conversation examines why Madonna continues to inspire, provoke, and captivate audiences around the world. Love her or question her, there's no denying that her legacy is one of the most remarkable in modern entertainment.

Download this and future episodes of our podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Pocketcasts, and anywhere else to find your favorite shows. You can search Why Are We Like This? and please be sure to subscribe, and/or write a review if possible to help build our show.  Have an idea for a future episode, or want to join us for a conversation? Send us a message with the link above!

Transcript

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Jarrod 0:15

Hi.

Robert 0:16

God.

Jarrod 0:18

No, just Madonna. It's Madonna. It's Madonna without child.

Robert 0:23

Um that's what we're talking about today. It's Madonna because she's uh of the moment.

Jarrod 0:28

Of the moment. Yet again. Being of the moment is everything.

Robert 0:32

She's found her way back.

Jarrod 0:34

She has. Um Happy Tuesday.

Robert 0:37

Oh, happy Tuesday.

Jarrod 0:38

We are recording on Tuesday.

Robert 0:40

Oh yeah. That worked out nice.

Jarrod 0:42

We don't always record on the day that we release because we like to be a little ahead of the curve.

Robert 0:47

I find that most things typically don't, right?

Jarrod 0:50

Like TV shows and well, definitely not TV shows except for maybe soap operas. I think maybe they're like a day ahead.

Robert 0:57

Can you imagine if we recorded this live every time?

Jarrod 0:59

Uh I I mean, I think maybe some people do. Yeah. Right? But um not us, all no. That's best left for the Sin Cities.

Robert 1:09

Uh so yeah, Madonna.

Jarrod 1:10

Madonna.

Robert 1:11

Yeah.

Jarrod 1:11

Madonna Ciccone from Detroit, Michigan. Yeah. So why is she such a gay icon? Why has she been a gay icon? Why does she continue to be a gay icon? And I think the quick answer is reinvention, but I think there's something else beyond reinvention, and we need to figure out what that is.

Robert 1:37

She has sustained a career for probably longer than most, right? Other than maybe share. Share. Um and through that has um evolved and changed her music style. I would say not necessarily in a pandering way, but in a um in a very intentional, mindful way, where she sees opportunities to kind of follow with what the trends are in music while still being um a bit of herself. And I think over the years there have been some misses, but there have definitely been some hits along there. I would say like every album that she that she's had, I I like at least one of the songs. Yes. But what what was your first what's your first memory of Madonna?

Jarrod 2:32

My first the first song I remember hearing on the radio uh that was Madonna's was Angel from her Like a Virgin album. Um followed very closely by Material Girl.

Robert 2:50

That's funny. Mine mine first is the Like a Virgin album too. That's the album name, right?

Jarrod 2:56

Like a Virgin, yeah, it was her second album.

Robert 2:59

Yeah, my first my first memory is the Like a Virgin album, because I remember my parents had the cassette in their like giant stereo cabinet. Like it had the the big receiver thing in the center and then the two speakers on the side. Yep, yeah. And um they had the cassette, and I remember seeing her in her address, and it was like grayscale or sepia, and it said like a virgin, and it said, This is sexual. Of course. So it's probably really good. I'm gonna listen to it. I don't remember how old it was. It was what, 86? No, I think 84. Oh, yeah, so it might be it was early. I I was born in '82, so I must have enjoyed it much later. I was probably around like six or seven, maybe.

Jarrod 3:43

So I think she probably was already onto her true blue album at that point.

Robert 3:47

Sure, that makes sense.

Jarrod 3:48

Which was an amazing cover. I think one of the best album covers of hers ever was that true blue album cover. Yeah. That was actually the first Madonna album I owned. Oh. I never owned the like virgin one. I just knew the songs from the radio. Interesting. Uh, and then uh MTV. And then uh the album, the first Madonna album my parents bought me was the True Blue album. And I loved it. It's so good. It's really good. Where's the party? I think is one of the more underrated songs in her discography. My first I'm sorry, I also like White Heat. It has a lot of like gangster dialogue in it, but it's like, get up, stand tall, put your back up against the wall. That's it. Love is dangerous.

Robert 4:35

This is a bust. I mean, come on. That was her in that moment. That like it's early 90s, right? Or late.

Jarrod 4:41

No, this is 86. So it's a very true blue is, I think, 86.

Robert 4:45

It's very much of that time where like no one's listening to us, so we need to speak louder.

Jarrod 4:51

Oh, everyone was listening to Madonna.

Robert 4:52

Well, yeah, that's that's part that was.

Jarrod 4:55

But it's just a great song. It's a great song. I think one of the things that Madonna does that keeps her current is that she has fun with her music. She understands what's current, but she's never really of the bubblegum genre. Like you can classify her as pop, but she's not really bubblegum. She plays with her music, she has fun with her music. Her music is intentional and it has a point, it has a story to tell. Whether it's deep or not, that depends, I think, on the album you're listening to. Yeah. But she does things, I think, before other artists do them. She is at the forefront of the music community. And I think that's always what helps to keep her fresh. Um, I think she's one of those people that just has a pure passion and love for what she does. I think she's a shrewd businesswoman. I think she's found her calling to help her rule the world.

Robert 5:54

Is that why you like her? All of those things?

Jarrod 5:56

She is she is um like Gina Gershawn, she's an alpha pussy. And that is the title of Gina Gershawn's new book.

Robert 6:05

I was gonna say I don't know what that has to mean.

Jarrod 6:09

That's a good title. Good for her. And it's and I think it's I think it's a great commanding word for women like Sharon Stone, Alpha Pussy.

Robert 6:17

It's very clear.

Jarrod 6:18

Yeah, you know exactly the kind of woman that you're getting. It's the kind of women, women that a lot of men fear and put all kind that they just throw all kinds of negative shit at them to see what'll stick. Because these are women who stand up for themselves, these are women who stick up for themselves, these are women who go out there and like Madonna said in one interview from the 90s, like, I don't need a dick between my legs if I have a dick in my head. They go out there and they act the way that men act, and men don't like that. Men like the way that Marilyn Monroe acts, which is a completely different topic and and I think episode, but she's the vulnerable female, right? That men love because they can come in and rescue and control.

Robert 7:07

Yeah, it's control.

Jarrod 7:08

Then you have people like Madonna and Gina Gershawn and Sharon Stone. Like these women, you fuck you. If you try to control them, you're gonna find yourself in a heap load of trouble. And they get nasty reputations for it. And I think that they earn that reputation, but not because what is being said of them is true, but because they've hit a nerve with people. And that's what I pay attention to. Yeah, and that's what Madonna does really well, is she hits people's nerves and she pushes their buttons because as an artist, she is being provocative.

Robert 7:41

Yeah, I feel like she's always done that. It's been not her shtick, but that's her gig. Like she's been known to be the one to stir the pot, get people talking, and usually talking about her, but also talking about things that are important that maybe people are uncomfortable to talk about, whether it be sexuality or teen pregnancy, yeah, any of that. HIV. Yeah. She's someone who I think always knows what her perspective is on things and is able to speak to them very clearly through her creativity and through her performance. She's an amazing dancer. I think she's an amazing singer. Um and I appreciate how she not only stands up for what she thinks and believes in, but she stands up for the people that she knows in the moment are to be able to stand up for themselves. The underdogs. Yeah. A hundred percent. Um Which is probably why the queer community like her so much.

Jarrod 8:48

Well, yes, because the queer community has been an underdog community for a very long time. And the queer community was gaining momentum and visibility at the same time that she was coming of age in her career. Uh, so they kind of go hand in hand. And her career started in places like Limeline and Danceteria.

Robert 9:08

Right.

Jarrod 9:09

Well, who do you mostly find at those kinds of clubs at that time? She gay men.

Robert 9:13

She created her primary audience. Right. Yeah.

Jarrod 9:16

And rightfully so. Like Bet Midler and the bathhouses. Yeah.

Robert 9:19

And all this time we're still supporting her because she supported us back then.

Jarrod 9:22

Yeah. That's that's how support works.

Robert 9:25

That's how I've always felt about it. Like there there are albums and songs. Well, yeah, there are albums and songs of hers that I just don't care for. Yeah. Like I think when American Life hit, I was like, I don't really like this. And then I kind of stopped listening to her for a while. Um but I still supported her. It was never a situation where I'm like, oh, I hate Madonna now. Oh, she's terrible. I can't deal with her anymore. Well, it's never been like that for me. It's just been like, I love some of the music she does, and some of it, it's not my favorite, but I still think she does good work.

Jarrod 9:56

It's like me in the hair industry. When Ombre hit the scene, I was like, Are you out of your mind? Having women come in and spend hundreds of dollars to give them roots and make it look like they need to get their hair done when they're on the way out the salon. No, but does that mean that I gave up on my career or my place in the industry? Absolutely not. There, I will say for me, and this goes for most musicians of this time, when I was coming of age in the 80s and 90s, those are the albums that I relate to the most. Those are the ones that I constantly go back to and listen to over and over again. Once I started branching out into other areas of music when I was in like my 20s, right? And my late teens, started getting into RB, started getting into dance, house music, um, and everything kind of changed. So for me, like the spectrum of Madonna catalog is from like a virgin to I would say bedtime stories. And then when she came out with I think the next album was was music.

Robert 11:06

It sounds right, but I don't, I'm not sure.

Jarrod 11:08

And it had frozen on it.

Robert 11:10

Uh that's Ray of Light.

Jarrod 11:11

Okay, Ray of Light, I think maybe came out before music.

Robert 11:14

And I really liked Ray of Light, but it was totally different than what she had done previously.

Jarrod 11:18

And I was not a fan of Ray of Light. Yeah. I didn't really like it. I didn't it didn't jive with me in the same way. I think that the tone was very different. And I think that maybe there was a little bit of a rebound from the uber sexual Madonna of the 90s.

Robert 11:36

Yeah, she was a little hippie-dippy. Yeah.

Jarrod 11:38

And and that was the one that I really latched on to because when I was a teenager and a young adult listening to these highly sexualized songs, I related to them. Not because I was necessarily a highly sexualized person, but because I was at a stage of my life where I was trying to find out where I fit in society. And there were all these rules and all these naysayers, and knowing that I was gay, but not really quite coming out yet until I was 16. And then here's this artist who's talking about sexual freedom, personal freedom, emotional freedom, religion, uh uh freedom of religion. Like it just spoke to me. And and I watch shows over and over and over again, and I'm the same way with music 80s, 90s music, always on a playlist somewhere in my phone.

Robert 12:32

Yeah. You were mentioning everything that she stood for in during that in that period, and I feel like knowing you, she was kind of the voice that combat all the other voices that were speaking to you during that time because you were you were in a household and you were amongst your classmates and teachers, and everyone was telling you, no, Jared, no Jared, no Jared, no Jared. And here you have this woman who you don't know who is supporting you from afar through her music saying, Yes, Jared.

Jarrod 13:06

Yes. Yes, yes, yes. And it wasn't just her music, but it was the way that she spoke about her music, the way she defended her music.

Robert 13:17

Yeah, she wasn't just singing whatever.

Jarrod 13:19

Exactly. And in interviews, she'd be asked, you know, parents have a problem with the context and the content of your music. And, you know, you're giving these kids ideas by singing to them about this. And she's like, Well, someone has to, because their parents clearly aren't. Like, this was at a point in time where teen pregnancy was on the rise. Why aren't parents having these talks with their kids about sex, about teen pregnancy, right? Papa, don't preach, but I'm keeping my baby, right? It's like parents got to a point with like Tipper Gore and the whole puritanical movement to be so afraid to talk to their kids about anything that they deemed sinful, right? And their children were hurting because of it because they were going out into a world that was going to do what the world was gonna do with them without knowing how to properly navigate it. Right. And here was this champion voice that was getting bashed for being the champion voice, for having the dick and the balls to actually say what these parents should have been saying to their children.

Robert 14:23

It's pretty cool.

Jarrod 14:24

I think so. What's your favorite Madonna album?

Robert 14:28

Um, I think my favorite album, I love the 80s stuff, I love the 90s stuff, but confessions really hit me.

Jarrod 14:37

Oh my god. You millennial gays and the confessions.

Robert 14:40

I know. It really hit me. I I really love it. It's a good one. It just it hit me at at a very peak time in my like gay life. Yes, where it it embodied so much of what was happening to me as I came into my adulthood. And I just love that it was like one continuous mix of music. So it just felt like this journey that I was going through.

Jarrod 15:01

And at that time in the mid-2000s, I mean, we were in the clubs and in the bars, and we just needed one continuous mix of joyous music because we were also coming out of that highly energized house music of the late 90s, right? That was slowly going away. Like the big dance clubs were going away, and places like the Abbey in West Hollywood were coming up. Where when I started going to the Abbey in 2001, it was a fraction of the size that it is now. It was like a small corridor. It was an abbey. Yeah. And it was the place where you went and you had drinks and you met people and you talked to people and you stood around and stared and judged people. There was no dancing at the Abbey. Yeah, right. So we needed something joyous in the background to make us feel good as we were sipping our drinks and spilling the tea. Yeah. And I think that Confessions did that for a lot of people. It was an amazing, I think, connect point with Madonna for fans who had kind of drifted away from her during the ray of light and music era. Because before that, it was Erotica, which is my personal favorite album.

Robert 16:11

I I was gonna say I really enjoy Erotica.

Jarrod 16:13

Erotica is amazing, and and Bedtime Stories. Now, Bedtime Stories, I had said earlier, maybe a little bit of a retreat from the Uber Sexual. Um, Bedtime Stories, I think, was very sensual, whereas Erotica was very sexual.

Robert 16:28

Two very different things.

Jarrod 16:29

Erotica, two two two different things. Erotica was just very heavy with the bass and the beat, and Bedtime Stories was uh just a little softer, a little bit more melodic, a little a little ballady. Yeah, yeah, just sort of like blurred on the soft focus, if you will. Whereas Erotica was like high contrast, black and white. And erotica also came out in line with her sex book, yeah, which was followed by the movie Body of Evidence. Um, and then she had the Bad Girl video, which I think was my favorite Madonna era look ever. That that like golden blonde hair with the pencil thin eyebrows and the matte makeup and like the smoking of the cigarettes at her desk and coming home at the dawn to feed her cat while putting eye drops in her eyes. And it's like, hello, that's my life.

Robert 17:23

Is that that's your favorite Madonna look, you think?

Jarrod 17:26

I think the bad girl look is my favorite Madonna look.

Robert 17:30

I have two, and they're gonna come sound very stupid.

Jarrod 17:33

Well, when you preface it, like I don't know.

Robert 17:35

I'm just I'm just putting it out there because like it's cheesy and I love it, but I really love Breathless Mahoney Madonna.

Jarrod 17:42

That's an amazing Madonna.

Robert 17:44

She's gorgeous with that.

Jarrod 17:46

And that's tight. That's truth or dare era Madonna for me.

Robert 17:49

That bright blonde with tight, tight, tight, tiny curls and all in black. I love that.

Jarrod 17:54

That's my second favorite Madonna look, I think, is like the Dick Tracy um I love all of that.

Robert 18:01

The Dick Tracy Blonde Ambition tour Madonna. It's so good. Yeah. And and then my second isn't even think about that. No, but that's great. Whoa, that's great. Um, no, it was it was a Vita. But specifically when she's um young Ava Perone and she's wearing the the flowy dresses, it's very uh it's it's wrong to say it's ethnic because it's it blurs the lines and it's kind of weird, but she just looks very carefree and young and full of life before life really hits her. Never saw it. You never saw a Vita.

Jarrod 18:39

It's a musical.

Robert 18:40

Oh I it is musicals.

Jarrod 18:45

I well, you don't like musicals, you've done musicals, and there are some that you I have gone to a couple musicals with you as my husband. Yeah. And if only to prove the point that I can't do musicals.

Robert 19:00

I'm not talking about stage shows. You've you've you watch some musical movies.

Jarrod 19:05

Okay, let's let's let's let's sidetrack that for a second and let's talk about which the first one that comes to mind is Earth Girls Are Easy. There's three numbers in the entire movie, and those aren't true musicals, those are just songs that the girls are kind of lip-syncing to that are totally in line with the story tone and context of the movie. So as I'm watching it as a movie and I'm lit, you know, hearing them talk about a makeover, I know exactly what's happening. It's not like some sondheim bullshit where he just feels like he needs to torture the singers, and then I completely lose the plot because I have no idea now what is going on in the story because they've all broken out into song.

Robert 19:45

No, I totally get it.

Jarrod 19:46

I'm a utilitarian communicator and it's just it's supercilious, superfluous.

Robert 19:52

There's there is nothing utilitarian about musicals.

Jarrod 19:55

What do you mean to say I mean what you say to mean or your dislike of them is fair.

Robert 20:00

Because I'm not unusual.

Jarrod 20:02

No, but I love music. Music is one of the biggest parts of my life, right? But musicals fucking suck.

Robert 20:12

It's not the same thing. There just happens to be music in musicals.

Jarrod 20:15

So when I say I don't do musicals, that means that I have gotten to a point in my life at 49 years old where I have out of courtesy gone to enough musicals in my younger years to prove to people, nope, still don't like it. And I don't feel that I need to prove that anymore. So when someone comes to me and they're like, Hey, do you want to go see this musical? No, thank you very much. Yeah. Period. Dot. End of story. Yeah. So what other musicals do I like?

Robert 20:46

Chicago.

Jarrod 20:47

I like the movie Chicago.

Robert 20:49

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I'm talking about movies.

Jarrod 20:52

There's that one, like I think there's one song, the Christine Baransky song that maybe I like. But Chicago, I sit through the music because it's somewhat linked to the script speaking dialogue. But it's really just okay, let me just get through this and then get back to the movie part because the movie part is so great. Right. Chicago is right on the line for me.

Robert 21:18

Yeah, I I agree. Okay. And you don't care for Moulin Rouge very much. Like you like for the same reason. Like you like the movie, but the music is just kind of like ancillary and tossed in there.

Jarrod 21:28

For me, like when she does diamonds, that to me is not a musical number, even though it originated from a musical. It is a performance number. It's like Madeline Ashton's number in the beginning of Death Becomes Her. Right. It's not a musical, right? It's a performance number. It's like the subject versus the object of a statement, right?

Robert 21:51

Yeah. It's the difference between you watching that and enjoying it and watching the um the elephant like love medley between the two of them. Don't care for it. That the Elm John song. Uh-huh. Don't care for it.

Jarrod 22:03

They put in like 20 songs all together, but yeah, and and I think with Moulin Rouge, it's so beautiful and Nikki Kidman is so great in it. And who doesn't love you and McGregor that Um, and the songs are based off of pop culture songs that are already in my Rolodex because I love music so much. That that one to me is, dare I say, crossover or hybrid. So I think that the musical folk want to classify that as a musical, right? Yeah. And great, more power to you, a rose by any other name. But for me, Moulin Rouge isn't a musical, it is a movie with music in it.

Robert 22:47

It's it's the jukebox musical where they take songs that people already know and put them to a story that they don't know and try to make it something like Mamma Mia and that's why they're all popular.

Jarrod 22:58

And I like ABBA, but I wouldn't go see Mamma Mia. Right. Because, well, one, I was afraid of how they bastardize the songs because they always do, right? I like Billy Joel, didn't go to that, like Neil Diamond, didn't go to that.

Speaker 23:09

Yeah.

Jarrod 23:10

Right. Like I know where my limits and my boundaries are. Yeah. So that's good. ABBA's fun. Mamma Mia, no. The other thing with Mamma Mia is I'm not a concert person. And the jukebox musicals, unlike regular musicals, often encourage people to get up and participate. And it's like, no, no.

Robert 23:32

I know.

Jarrod 23:32

I need to be in a space where I can sit and enjoy the show. And if everyone else around me is standing up, I then I'm like, okay, then I have to stand up to see what I paid to see. But maybe I don't know all the songs. Maybe I just I'm not that kind of person. And then I look like some boring AR rep just standing there watching the show. So for me, it's like if I'm gonna go to a concert to see someone that I really like at this stage of the game, I need to be in a private box where I'm not around the general population and I can just sit back and enjoy my amenities and enjoy the show without all this superfluous. Look at me, I'm so wild and crazy. I know all these ABA songs, mama mia. It's too much. It's too much. I agree. So I've been to a few concerts and some were really great. I've never been to a Madonna concert, though.

Robert 24:29

I haven't either.

Jarrod 24:31

Well, and now, I mean, not now, but I mean even 25 years ago, they just got to the point where they were so expensive. Yeah, it's irresponsible. Yeah. So for someone who is a concert person, I can see why that would be an investment for them. Like someone who loves to travel, yeah, you're gonna spend that time and money to get yourself to Europe for a month. Totally get it. Not my jam.

Robert 24:54

I I still wouldn't like I like concerts, but I'm not paying that much money for that's yeah, that's not right.

Jarrod 25:02

So going back to my favorite album, Erotica, uh, it was after the Like a Prayer album, and it was after the Blonde Tour, which is sort of like her greatest hits, right? I just thought at the time in like 91 or 92, it was just so groundbreaking. And to this day, every time I hear the opening bar and beats to erotica, I am just taken exactly to that place. Not my place and time where I was when I first heard it, but to Dita and the club where she's gonna be the my mistress tonight. Like it is such a profoundly audio inspiring song. Yeah, like it triggers all my audio fibers. Yeah, and I think one of my better drag songs when I performed in bars and clubs.

Speaker 26:03

Yeah.

Jarrod 26:03

Um, it's a hot, hot, hot song, followed up by Fever, which was a great rendition of an existing song. And then you had Deeper and Deeper, which I loved, and I loved the video, and it had that German actor, what's his name? Udo. Um, he had the light eyes. He was in the Swan Song. He played the hairdresser. I know you're talking about it. And I can't think of his name right now. I'm having a total brain fart. I know what you're talking about. But I mean, it was just it was a divine video, and then came Bad Girl with Christopher Walken, and I just thought, oh, this woman, this woman. And then then, and then on the other side of the universe, you had Sharon Stone doing basic instinct, and it was just like this this machination of women empowerment, right? Like, I know Spice Girls, Girl Power, yada, yada. These were women, right? And they were taking control, and it was beautiful, and it's what inspired me to want to do drag. My drag is an homage to these powerful, beautiful Amazonian like women, goddesses of the 90s, from Madonna and Sharon Stone to the supermodels. Brilliant, brilliant time. And then bedtime stories hit, and it was like we're off the rush and the high of erotica, and then all of a sudden, it's like okay, the other substance is starting to kick in now. Now I'm starting to get the groove, right? The backbeat, the the smoother, sort of almost jazzier-like sounds of bedtime stories, like less bass. It's it was like erotica was very dark, bedtime stories was very light. And I just I loved the contrast of both while still being able to absorb and appreciate the majority of tracks on both albums.

Robert 27:56

Yeah, I would agree with that. It was a it was a really good time. Yeah.

Jarrod 28:01

And all of that on the heels of Blunt Ambition Tour, which truth or dare, I I mean, you know me. I love that documentary. I watch it over and over and over again. I am obsessed with Slam. I am so thrilled that he and I follow each other. And I just the second I saw him as like a 15, 16-year-old guy, I knew I was gay. I saw him and I said, There's no way, for as long as I've struggled with wondering if I am or not, that I am a heterosexual at this point, because I looked at him and he represented the perfection, like male beauty personified, the jawline, the nose, the eyes, everything. And and in the Vogue video, when he smiles, Slam, you still make my heart smile to this day when I watch that video and you smile. It's just he was the Ricky Martin before Ricky Martin. I I I just I can't I I there's not that there's not there's not enough that I can say about Slam's impact on me as a gay person, realizing there's no way I can keep this feeling inside. There's no way that I want to keep this feeling inside. Look at these two men kissing. They're into it. Everybody sitting at that table is into it. There's nothing wrong with me. There's something wrong with the people that I'm surrounded by.

Robert 29:32

That's what I was thinking of while you were saying it. Because there's, of course, the sexual attraction, right? Because he's gorgeous. Yes. But more importantly, and probably more impactful, whether you acknowledged it or realized it at the time, was how his presence and his openness during the time then gave you permission to be comfortable and to be open and to be honest with yourself and then in turn with everyone else. And that's that's part of that visibility element that I think a lot of people don't understand when when people of color or the queer community or people with disabilities, when they say how important visibility is in the media, in TV and in movies and stuff, that's why it's important for us to see ourselves and other people in the things that we choose to surround ourselves, whether that be media or friends, or if we don't see ourselves, then we start to feel that we don't matter. And so I I I love that you had that like opening and that realization through that. Mine mine was George Michael in that same sense.

Jarrod 30:41

Oh, sure. Yeah, I can see that. I think the difference for me was that everyone speculated that George Michael was gay, right? But he held so steadfast to really not being gay for people, yeah. And that was a bad message. Absolutely. It's like, oh, now that you get caught in a public bathroom, you're gonna come out. Like Kevin Spacey, oh, now that all this shit's hitting the fan, you're gonna come out. Like that is not the time to come out.

Robert 31:08

It's not, it's not a great message, and it wasn't. It was eye-opening for me. Yes. Um, and I and I feel like had I been listening or paying closer attention to Madonna during that time, I probably would have had a similar experience. Because there really wasn't anyone else.

Jarrod 31:24

Well, and we can't fault them at the same time. Right. Because the the societal pressure, you know, when when especially someone like George Michael and Kevin Spacey, who are such megastars in their respective fields, how does all that hard work just vanish because you say you like to sleep with men instead of women? Right. That's not fair. No, right? You and and Hollywood and all of its iterations is you have to play the game or you get kicked out. Yeah, you can't do anything different than offbeat. And even Slam was not honest. I'm not spilling his tea on this podcast, although he did you go watch Strike a Pose. He will talk to you about his truth or dare experience, what he was hiding at that time. And it broke my heart. It absolutely broke my heart uh for many different reasons. And I strongly encourage you guys to watch Strike a Pose. It's about the backup dancers and their experience from that time. It came out like maybe what, like 10 years ago? Something like that. Great documentary. Really great documentary, and it was so wonderful to see all the guys that could be there back again and how they've how they've grown, how they've evolved, and uh, of course, just seeing Slam again. And now I get to see him like whenever I want. And I love it.

Robert 32:49

I was gonna say too about erotica, I I feel like Madonna is also the first uh female artist to have really developed her brand in a way where uh synergy just kind of happens as she's doing it. She during during erotica, she's got the album, she's got the tour, she's got the movie, she's got the book. All of these things are happening all at once where during that like five-year span specifically surrounding that album, you couldn't not talk about her. Right. She was on everyone's lips, whether you loved her or not.

Jarrod 33:21

Well, even before that, with the Like a Prayer album, right, because that was so controversial. She lost her Pepsi contract because of it, but that's okay because Coca-Cola is better. And yeah, I mean, she she like girls were dressing like her. Like, she is her relevance spans decades. But I think that before it was always just just a little toned down for for mainstream consumerism. But when all the girls at the mall in the 80s who were dressing like her in her like a virgin era became old enough to make their own decisions with money, bam, yeah, with money, yeah, they got hit with erotica, they got hit with the sex book, they got hit with body of evidence. And I think it it's it's brilliant. And then the great thing about bedtime stories coming out after erotica was everyone said, well, erotica sold because it was about sex, it was salacious, it was subversive, it was controversial, so that's why people bought it. Well, Bedtime Story is none of those things, and it was a spectacularly successful album and highly enjoyable to listen to. Yeah. I mean, Secret was the the big one off of that album, and I just thought it was just so it's toned down's not the right word, but it was sexy but sensual. It was deep and warm, whereas erotica was sort of deep and cold.

Robert 34:48

I think I was talking to you before about bedtime stories, how I remember the the midnight launch, like birthday party or sleepover party that they had on MTV, where it was like a a listening party um where they televised it and everyone there always wearing pajamas and she was rolling around and like here's the next song. I remember that bit. And I remember watching that thinking, this is so cool. Yeah, like how cool that she gets to do something so like could be salacious, but it's just fun. Yeah, like it's just for the sake of fun and silliness.

Jarrod 35:22

Yep, I agree, and then after Bedtime Stories, which I think came out in '94, '95. That sounds about right. Um, late 90s was all about house, dance, Robin S, um, Crystal Waters, like all and all the crazy stuff too, like um The Loonies. I got five on it. Uh TLC was really big, right? Uh SWV. So I think there became a really heavy, heavy RB influence to music, um, and all its iterations. Right. And her response to that was, well, why get lost in the masses? And that's why I think she came out with Ray of Light. And I think that's why Ray of Light didn't really resonate with me because it was the first time that instead of being ahead of culture, she was counter-culture. Yeah. And, you know, in your late teens, early twenties, you know, you're you're you're you're into what they're playing and the places that you want to be at.

Robert 36:27

I remember I remember getting the album and liking it, but maybe not disappointed is the right word, but feeling distance from it because of that. Like it wasn't quite what I was expecting, and maybe not what I wanted in that moment. Right. But I listened to it now and there are songs that are like I love Ray of Light, the song. Um so it's yeah, it's interesting.

Jarrod 36:53

Did not like Frozen. I'll be honest. Did not like Frozen, and every freaking drag queen at that time had to do their version of Frozen, and it was never a good version of Frozen. Right. It was a little too a party city Halloween wig. Like, get come on, let's let's it's like drag race when they all showed up in the Madonna, the red kimono Madonna. Oh, yeah. It was just oversaturated, it was too much. Um then I think the music album sort of reintroduced that like heavier bass of erotica, but in a much warmer way, right? And then we got what it feels like for a girl, and then the remix that they used for the video, just I absolutely loved it, and I loved the video. Yeah, it was insane. It was like she really I I mean, she for all intents and purposes could have had a dick in between her leg in that video because she was she was taking what it's like to be a girl and flipping the script on its head. Yeah, that's it. And acting the way that men act in that moment.

Robert 37:59

I I'm thinking like the album itself, uh I listened to it a lot. Like I think that was maybe the first one that I went and actually bought for myself. Um looking back, I'm thinking songs like um What's the the Tell Me song? Don't tell me, I don't like that song. I don't care for that. It's a little too twangy, it's a little too country.

Jarrod 38:19

Shania Twain was also coming, but she was really big.

Robert 38:24

Yeah, I don't love I don't love those elements of that, but music is great. What it feels like to be a girl is really good.

Jarrod 38:30

Oh, we totally forgot about the Justify My Love scandal, too, which was kind of right in between the uh dare tour and her uh erotica era. It was on the Immaculate Collection and it was a black and white video, and it was her in a hotel room, right? And it was sexual, it was banned on MTV. Oh, right. And you had it was like you had to be 17 to buy it at the video stores. But of course, we you know, leave it to Gen X. We found a way to get it. We're watching at our friend's house, and I loved it. I loved how provocative it was, and I loved how some moments were just so tongue-in-cheek. It's like her message the whole time is look, sex is a part of humanity. Stop taking it so seriously. It should feel good, but it should also be fun, and at times you should be able to laugh at yourself over the things that we do, not just during sex, but for sex.

Robert 39:26

Yeah.

Jarrod 39:26

Like, stop being so bejiggity about it all.

Robert 39:30

Part of the uproar around it, too, was the fact that there was uproar about it, right? Like it wouldn't have been a big deal if you were just able to go get it or you're able to watch it. But the fact that they could make a news story of it and be like, oh, well, you can't watch this unless you're 17 and you rent it from the store.

Jarrod 39:44

Oh, and of course, Mama, I heard about that video. You can't get that video.

Robert 39:48

How did your mom hear about it?

Jarrod 39:49

Before the view was even on it.

Robert 39:50

I was gonna say they didn't have the view then. How did she get her news? How did she know what was going on in the world if they didn't have the view?

Jarrod 39:56

I think she was secretly watching MTV news with Kurt Loader just so she could get the skinny on what was going on in my world.

Robert 40:02

Wouldn't that be funny if she's just like in a closet?

Jarrod 40:05

A lot of it was late-night talk show. Jay Lemo, David Letterman.

Robert 40:08

Yeah, especially David Letterman. Yeah.

Jarrod 40:10

And they would show clips approved for TV for late night at that hour. Yeah. But then I watched the movie and I'm like, why are all these adults so bent out of shape over what I just saw when at like 15 years old, 14 years old, I was able to totally process what I saw and didn't feel like I needed to then run out and repeat what I saw? It was like, this is some fucking badass, provocative, subversive storytelling, and I'm here for it as a soon-to-be out gay man. Yeah. Or boy at that time, because you know what um what was I gonna say?

Robert 40:51

Oh, I was gonna ask you. We've named so many of them, but what are what are your like top three Madonna songs?

Jarrod 40:58

First is Eronica.

Robert 41:00

Eronica is number one.

Jarrod 41:01

Yeah. Uh second is probably bad girl. And then, oh, the third one, it's it's it's gonna be a hard one. And this is coming from left field, it might be causing a commotion.

Robert 41:19

Oh, that's a good one. The bridge is everything in that song. And I always forget about it until it's playing in the car. And then on my playlist. Yeah, you know, I remember, oh my god.

Jarrod 41:29

Yeah, no, it's an amazing song, it's really good. Now, some runner-ups for me would definitely be White Heat and Where's the Party. Um, one song that she's never done in a concert that's really underrated that I think would be a great concert song is Rescue Me from the Immaculate album. She's never done that. I don't think she's ever done Rescue Me in concert, and I think that it would be a fucking amazing song. So, Madonna, if you ever do Rescue Me, just go ahead and send me a box ticket and I will come and watch the show.

unknown 42:04

Box ticket.

Jarrod 42:05

I can't do the general population, and I'm sure she understands what that is all about. In general, let's yeah, can't. I can't. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not not a people person. I am not a large group people person. Yeah, because I'm an empath, and when I get too much frenetic energy around me at one time, I kind of start to shut down.

Robert 42:27

It's not unusual.

Jarrod 42:28

And it's not unusual.

Robert 42:31

That's my favorite Madonna song.

Jarrod 42:33

Um my favorite Tom Jones song is the remix Sex Bomb. That is fire. It's pretty good. That's really good. In fact, Madonna could do a remix to that one like she did Fever. Oh, yeah, that'd be funny. I think that would be hot, hot, hot.

Robert 42:45

Um I really like Sooner or Later. That's one of my favorite Madonna songs.

Jarrod 42:52

From Dick Tracy. Yeah, yeah, that's good. That's good.

Robert 42:56

I think it it's a good show of her range, and it's unique for her that I that I always really liked. Um I really like rain. A lot of people like rain. I really like rain a lot, and and one of my favorite memories when I first heard it, uh I was in college and my friend had the album, and I was like, oh, I really like that song. And then I had this idea, I'm gonna play the song while I'm in the shower. And I'm gonna listen to rain. And I would do that over and over again. Um so I just find that to be very calming, but like still like sexy somehow. Sure it is. I really like that one a lot.

Jarrod 43:32

It's it's almost a I think that's from the Erotica album, and it's almost a precursor to the tone of bedtime stories.

Robert 43:38

Yeah, yeah.

Jarrod 43:39

And um, it's like she takes you through this wild, crazy, demented ride of sexual exploration and exposure, and then she hits you with the song Rain, where you can wash away whatever it is you don't want to take with you. Yeah, it's so good. And it is a really good song. It is a really good song, and a lot of people love it. But I am I am one of those like if I turn on a Madonna song, I just I wanna I want my brain to go crazy with the music and the lyrics.

Robert 44:09

Right.

Jarrod 44:09

One exception to that is this used to be my playground. Yeah. That is one of the most not just beautiful Madonna ballads, but one of the most beautiful ballads, I think, in music history. I think it is so poignant. And I think it tells a beautiful, delicate story about love and life and the human experience and time passing. I mean, look, I'm getting goosebumps just thinking about it right now. It's beautiful, but it is not one of my top three. But it is a beautiful, gorgeous song. And her something to remember album, also, I think that doesn't get a lot of play, which is all of her ballad songs.

Robert 44:54

Yeah, that's what she I love that she put that together to get a Vita. That was her object.

Jarrod 45:00

Well done. Well done. I don't care for Take A Bow. Um I like it. And again, a lot of people do, but I just it's not my jam.

Robert 45:11

It's very musical.

Jarrod 45:12

Yes. And that's probably why I don't like very 11th hour song. Because it was four, right? Yep. Yeah. Yeah. So um I think now I will say, I think no, it was Bedtime Stories. I do think that the video was beautiful and I loved it. I think that for me also, that was the last bigly big promoted song from Bedtime Stories. And so I don't know if I knew it at the time, or maybe I did and really wasn't aware of what I saw coming down the pipeline, but it was almost like a goodbye to the Madonna era that I came of age in.

Speaker 45:53

Yeah.

Jarrod 45:54

And so, and that I think that's another reason why I don't really care for that song because I I didn't want that Madonna to take a bow.

Robert 46:03

Nice.

Jarrod 46:04

And it wasn't really until Confessions where I got the album, or I think at that point we were we were we were on i iPods then. Yeah. So iTunes, right? And and that was that was amazing. Yeah. Um I also like the girly show. The girly show was a really great concert, but then again, her concerts are a mix of all different types of decades of music.

Robert 46:27

Thankfully, she has such the gamut. She's like Cher in that sense. Like you can go to the concert and you know you're gonna hear songs that you like. Yeah. Yep. Um, my number three is holiday.

Jarrod 46:37

Holiday, okay. Holiday is amazing, but Truth or Dare Holiday is superior to the original holiday.

Robert 46:47

Like Truth or Dare Holiday from the movie? From the movie. Yeah, oh yeah, absolutely.

Jarrod 46:52

That one is amazing. Um, the way that it's mixed up, the dancing, the costumes, I believe it was an encore song. Yeah. Um that's that's why I like it.

Robert 47:03

It's totally different from the Immaculate Collection. Yes, yeah, yes.

Jarrod 47:06

Uh another one for me that is a close runner is uh Keep It Together.

Robert 47:12

Oh yeah.

Jarrod 47:13

Keep it together is really good. And The Truth or Dare.

Robert 47:17

That's that's got some really good like rhythmic synchronization to it, too. That's that's a lot of fun.

Jarrod 47:22

And the choreography was fun. Yeah. I mean, it's Madonna's gonna be that kind of artist where it's you it's it's hard to pick a top three. You're always gonna be like, uh, did I video? But no, I I stick by um Erotica, Bad Girl, and causing a commotion because I think that those three songs very clearly communicate who she was in those moments in those eras and gives you such um understanding of her range as an artist, yeah. Not as just a singer, not just an actress, but as an artist.

Robert 48:06

I think that's important to do. I think that's important to do for any person that is that is trying to be in a position like that. It's easy to be like, oh, well, they're a terrible singer. Like we joke that Katy Perry can't perform live. No, she performs live. She need she may not be a great that was one concert I went to. Singer, yeah, it was.

Jarrod 48:26

Yeah, and that was a fun concert. That's the thing. It's fun. It's Katy Perry. Who cares if she's like, What are you expecting from California Girls? Right. Which was, I mean, California Girls is it, that was the anthem of summer 2010.

Robert 48:39

Yeah. But that's what I mean. Like, we should be looking at them as holistic artists that are performers and singers and dancers. Whatever they do, they're doing at their best. And we enjoy them for what they do rather than trying to knock them down by the things that they don't do.

Jarrod 48:52

Because if every performer was the same, how boring would that be? Sometimes you need a palate cleanse. Yeah. Like I say, when people start bashing movies because it it's just not a good movie. It's like, well, you know what? Not every freaking movie is gonna be a Mystic River. Right. Deal with it. I thought you were gonna say Mystic Pizza. Oh my god. Well, close that guy. They're not all gonna be Mystic Pizza. No, it's a Mystic River, right? And Mystic, and I I use Mystic River because it's an Academy Award-winning movie, Sean Penn, which hello, one degree separation from Madonna.

Robert 49:26

Madonna did sleep with a lot of movie stars. She married him. Wasn't she with Dennis Rodman for the true?

Jarrod 49:34

I I think that may have just been publicity. But he was phenomenal in that movie. But not every actor wants to or is capable of giving that kind of performance to an audience. And that has to be okay, folks. Not every singer is going to be the best singer in the world, the best dancer in the world. But it's not about that. No, it's about relatability. And it's about listening to a song and saying, Yeah, this moves me inside. This makes me feel something. I like that, or watching a movie and saying, wow, I can relate to that. That gives me something to think about. Yeah. Totally agree. Art in all of its forms and iterations should be provocative. It should be subversive. It should be thought-provoking. It should induce self-awareness and mindfulness and expansion of the consciousness. That's what art is. Yeah. So the fact that there's so many people out there that want to take art away, you talk about Madonna being a pioneer for art and a champion for art. I think that's one of the biggest reasons why she's still such a huge icon today, why she is a tremendous gay icon, and why she's a human being icon.

Speaker 50:46

Yeah.

Jarrod 50:47

Because she hasn't stopped doing what her original message is, which is just shut the fuck up and listen to what we have to say.

Robert 50:58

Yeah.

Jarrod 50:59

So I say kudos to her. Bravo.

Robert 51:02

Yeah. I'm acting I'm looking forward to this new album. Not only because it's Confessions, part two.

Jarrod 51:08

Part D.

Robert 51:09

Um, but I I I'm looking forward to it because I heard the first song and I didn't really care for it. But part of me doesn't make sense. But part of me for the same reason that you just said, I there's there's something in that. Like, why do I not care for it? What is it about it that I don't care that I don't like about it? And is it just because I've listened to it once and I don't care, or is it part of a bigger moment that I need to just embrace and experience before I can make a decision?

Jarrod 51:38

Well, and I think that's the problem with sampling too. Like, we didn't do that back in the 80s and 90s. We heard one song on the radio, we ran out, bought the album, listened to the whole album all at once. Yeah. So you got the whole picture. You got the A side, you got the B side, you got the whole gamut of the story that they were telling on that album. Now you get to pick and choose what you want to listen to. Our attention span is for shit. If you don't like what you hear in the first 30 seconds, you skip it.

Speaker 52:03

Yeah.

Jarrod 52:04

So that's not really fair to the artist. But I also think uh you don't have to like every song on the album.

Robert 52:13

I typically don't.

Jarrod 52:14

Right. There's always going to be songs that you know are on your top three, your bottom three, and then the middle songs that you listen to to get to your top three songs.

Robert 52:24

And I typically don't like the the single. Like the song that they've pushed out first, regardless of who the artist is. I typically don't like that song. There's usually two or three of them that kind of sprinkle in that thing, oh god, this song is so good. Why didn't they choose this one? I love this one so much more.

Jarrod 52:41

Yep.

Robert 52:41

So I'm looking forward to it.

Jarrod 52:43

Well, let's talk a little bit about her acting because she is a triple threat. And in the original form of it, she sings, she acts, she dances. Right. Um, now she's been in a lot of movies, some great, some not so great. Some can be broken down, as she said, by her being a good actress in a bad movie, or her being a bad actress in a bad movie.

unknown 53:10

Right.

Jarrod 53:12

Um, and I think there's something to that, but I also think there's something to say for what people bring to the movie going experience. Like for me, who's that girl? It's an amazing movie. Yeah. Yes, she's obnoxious, but guess what? She's really not obnoxious. That's the character, yes, the character she's playing is is obnoxious, but also endearing and heartwarming because what does this character do? Forces Louden to step outside of the bubble he's created for himself so he can realize that he is not living his fullest life. Yeah, or the life that he may have even chosen for himself.

Robert 53:50

It's also such a great time capsule.

Jarrod 53:52

Yes, it is of a film. And it's the album that Causing a Commotion is on. Yeah, yeah, that's a great one. It's really good. Um, love body of evidence. I think it got a little buried in the whole like basic instinct, final analysis, sort of neo-noir movement of the early 90s. There was a lot of them, but uh I mean Willem Dafoe, Julian Moore, Madonna, uh I think Ann Archer. Like these are some real powerhouse actors. And was it a brilliant movie? Not really, but it gave me everything I wanted when I saw the trailer and said, I want to go see Madonna in that movie. I left that movie saying, I got exactly what I wanted from that. Right. Because there's no messing around with her, there's no pussyfooting around the bush with Madonna. Right. And I love that. Like, you always know what you're gonna get, you always know where you stand, and that is something that threatens people. Like going back to a previous episode about effort, Madonna puts effort into everything that she does. And effort is one of those things that when you put effort into something, it threatens those who don't put effort into anything. And if they're not putting effort into anything, they're not worth listening to. So you want to save someone, save yourself. Scrape them off, Claire. Scrape them off, Madonna. So um, and and the documentary, which is not really a movie in the traditional sense, but I love, I I've watched it over and over and over again, and I can continue to watch it over and over again. Shanghai Surprise is not really one that I'm fond of. What is Shanghai Surprise? It was it was one that she did um after Desperately Seeking Susan, which I love. I think it's a fun 80s movie uh she did with Sean Penn, and it just, I don't think it was great. I think it was just a troubled movie. Um and I've I've seen I've seen it once, and I remember bits and pieces of it, mostly aesthetics from it more than anything else. Was that mid-90s? No, no, no. This is mid-80s. Oh, yeah. I've never heard of that. This is before Who's That Girl. Oh, right. You did say that. It was between Dusperly Seeking Susan and Who's That Girl. And then she also did A League of Their Own. So good. I love her. Yeah, so so great.

Robert 56:22

Her her and Rosie O'Donnell are just so fun. I remember loving their friendship when I was a kid.

Jarrod 56:28

Yeah.

Robert 56:28

Really loving that.

Jarrod 56:30

So I think I I think that she has gone above and beyond in terms of her cultural contribution to our society. And I'm glad.

Robert 56:40

What's your what's your favorite movie of hers?

Jarrod 56:42

Body of evidence. If if you if you're counting regular movies, I mean, I would truth or dare. It's a but it's a documentary, right? Yeah. Um that goes beyond that. But as far as movies go, um I would have to, oh, who's that girl? Who's that girl or body of evidence? If someone really needs an answer, email me and I'll give you one.

Robert 57:06

Just do that.

Jarrod 57:07

They neck and neck. It's a photo finish between who's that girl and body of evidence. Her later stuff that she did, uh, like that, what was the best friend movie with Rupert Everett? That's on my list. And Evita. Yeah. Like those the next best thing. Next best thing. I thought that was a great movie. I thought it showed great acting, great storytelling, like everything that they want to believe about Madonna's acting, she just proved them wrong with that as if she hadn't done it before.

Speaker 57:33

Yeah.

Jarrod 57:34

Um, but again, it's that scope of when I was coming of age and what she was coming out with when I was coming of age. So it is a toss-up for who's that girl or um body of evidence for me.

Robert 57:48

I Next Best Thing is probably my favorite of hers. Yeah. And uh Dick Tracy is a very close second.

Jarrod 57:56

Dick Tracy, I think, is really good, but she's not uh uh her role is not enough of a heavy hitting role for me. Um, I think she's amazing. I think she could have been even more amazing if there was a little bit more to her character that she could bring to the celluloid.

Robert 58:19

Yeah. Totally agree.

Jarrod 58:21

But I I I mean, I also you know, I I think I like Dick Tracy more than you do. I I love that movie. I love Glenn Headley and Warren Beatty. Um, Charlie, was it Charlie Cosmo who plays the kid? Oh, that sounds right. And I mean Dustin Hoffman's in it, and uh the Forsyth guy who plays Flat Top.

Robert 58:44

It's an amazing cast. It's an amazing cast.

Jarrod 58:47

Al Pacino, Paul Servino, Mandy Petankin.

Robert 58:50

I feel like if they were to do that today, it would do much better. Not as a reason. Yeah, if they hadn't made Dick Tracy then, but they did it to Dick Tracy.

Jarrod 58:58

Oh, I see. Yeah.

Robert 58:59

It would have done better.

Jarrod 59:00

I could see that. I and if it's if it wasn't turned into a Michael Bay production.

Robert 59:05

Right. If it was just if it was truly yeah, yeah.

Jarrod 59:08

Like what they did then, but just amped it up with the technology and stuff that they had today to make it very I also think because Madonna was a seductive songstress in Dick Tracy, a lot of people confused her performance of that character with who she is. Just being Madonna. Who's just being Madonna. And she's not. That's not Madonna. If you watch Truth or Dare, you know that that is not Madonna.

Speaker 59:31

Yeah.

Jarrod 59:31

So I think that one of the brilliant things about Dick Tracy is the fact that she can play someone like her without playing herself, and that's a talent.

Speaker 59:42

Yeah.

Jarrod 59:42

Some people get paid millions of dollars to be themselves, and I think that can be a talent in and of itself. You are so interesting that people are willing to pay to see you be you over and over and over again. Awesome. That's can that's amazing. And then there's the people that really morph into the character, they're just a different type. They're they're maybe not a movie star, they are an act actor, if you will. Yeah. And um, I think that the the there's there's talent in both, but they're on opposite sides of the pendulum.

Robert 1:00:18

Right.

Jarrod 1:00:19

And I think Madonna can play a version of herself, and I think she can play somebody completely different than herself because her music is storytelling, and what is movie and acting? Storytelling. I mean, if Jennifer Lopez can do it.

Robert 1:00:36

Yeah. Well, and she can do it. That last movie of hers was so fun.

Jarrod 1:00:40

Oh, that romantic comedy was really fun. Yeah. So if you go back uh to something up in the air, no, that was the George Cloney movie.

Robert 1:00:50

It was office office romance.

Jarrod 1:00:52

Office romance. It was really, really good. Really good. Um, that I I planted a little Easter egg when I said, I won't let you fall out of the sky to Robert in that episode or two ago. Yeah. It was from that movie because we had just watched it. Um Office Romance was really good. And the the male lead is uh the hot gruffy soccer player from Ted Lasso.

Robert 1:01:16

Yeah, I want to say Brett Goldstein, but I don't know if that's correct.

Jarrod 1:01:19

Yeah, not sure. That sounds right, but not sure.

Robert 1:01:21

But this I'm terrible with the names. I'm not the one at the past.

Jarrod 1:01:24

It was really good. It was really good. And I I've liked a lot of Jennifer Lopez's stuff. I think she's gotten I don't know where this like rap of hers got came from where people just started shitting on her.

Robert 1:01:38

Well, didn't she do Gigi or something?

Jarrod 1:01:42

Gili?

Robert 1:01:43

Yeah. I think that's when it started.

Jarrod 1:01:45

Well, come on. I mean, but let's let's be honest. Like, there's a lot of actors who have done work because they needed work, or because they trusted the director, or because the vision that they were presented with was different than what transpired. Like one of my favorite movies, Ghost Ship, with Juliana Margoles, right? That started off as a completely different script. It was about a guy who was losing his mind on this lost vessel. It was not a paranormal movie at all. By the time they landed in Australia to shoot the movie, the script had been completely rewritten and it was a scary ghost story movie. That's so weird. But they had already all signed on. And what do you do when you back out? Pay the fee to back out of your contract. Not every actor can afford to do that. And sometimes you're presented with a challenge for a reason, and it's good to see what you can do with that. Not everything we do has to be our best work, as long as it gets us one step closer to being our best self. I like that a lot. Thank you.

Robert 1:02:48

I um I also think it it's just kind of where we are when it comes with with celebrity or people who've attained that like level of popularity where the expectation is that they have to deliver it every time or that they're only good at one thing, so stop trying to do other things. And I think we all just need to shut up sometimes and let people just do things. Right. If Madonna wants to start tap dancing in her next album, let her let her give it a try, see how it goes. Who cares?

Jarrod 1:03:22

I mean, if Britney Spears can become a Benny Hanashef, anybody can do anything. Done. Agreed. Done. All right. I think that's a wrap on this. Madonna, we love you. You are an icon in all ways, and please don't ever stop being you.

Robert 1:03:41

No. Thank you for supporting us. We will always support you.

Jarrod 1:03:44

100%. And we will see you next Tuesday.